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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #7501  
Old 17.01.2017, 23:22
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I think they should work to keep the union going, by having a favorable deal with the U.K.
But that is not what the supporters of BREXIT want! They are looking for full access to the single market with out being subject to the rules of that market. No doubt that would be a great deal for the UK, but it would be total unacceptable from an EU point of view. There is no problem for the EU and the UK to negotiate a typical trade deal under WTO standards in due course but that does not seem to be what the UK wants.

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On the best terms for both, ignoring free movement, principles, tariffs and the rest of it and just say 'ok, what's best for both of us, for Europe and for you'. That's good government of your European Union. Not trying to hurt someone when they leave to scare others into staying. It's a political union for gods sake, not ISIS.
The EU has the objective of an ever closer using and part of that is a single market, exactly the same as the one which exists in each country, but on an EU scale. It is a fundamental part of that closer union, so why would you expect they should abandon their objective in favour of a trade deal with a third country. Or would you be happy to see the UK abandon it's principles for a deal with the EU????

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A few weeks ago everyone was convinced we would never get a trade deal with the u.s. Now they want to make one as soon as is possible.
Here is the thing everyone is happy to make a trade deal with you when the can sell their sh*t to you on their terms. Of course Trump will be happy to make a smart deal (mean good for the USA) with the UK, after all he will be the 500lbs gorilla in the room dealing with a much weaker opponent who badly need a deal. However whether Trump is still in office by the time such a deal remains to be seen, since the earliest negotiations be ready for approval are 2019 and after that it must go to the WTO for approval as well.
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  #7502  
Old 17.01.2017, 23:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The things the EU calls "principles" are really "ideals". At some point, a value judgement has to be made based on pragmatism vs. ideals. In a conceptual discussion, one can afford to stick to ideals for as long as it doesn't touch reality. But when it come to a value proposition in reality, then one makes a decision between pragmatism and ideals.

My point is, this can get to a point where there is a real value proposition between a pragmatic solution and an idealistic one. It will be a totally different discussion at that point.

FMOP is causing a lot of problems for the EU. At the moment, they can hold that off at the conceptual level. But when it starts causing problems at the level of reality, it will look rather foolish for them to not reconsider it.
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  #7503  
Old 17.01.2017, 23:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The things the EU calls "principles" are really "ideals". At some point, a value judgement has to be made based on pragmatism vs. ideals. In a conceptual discussion, one can afford to stick to ideals for as long as it doesn't touch reality. But when it come to a value proposition in reality, then one makes a decision between pragmatism and ideals.

My point is, this can get to a point where there is a real value proposition between a pragmatic solution and an idealistic one. It will be a totally different discussion at that point.

FMOP is causing a lot of problems for the EU. At the moment, they can hold that off at the conceptual level. But when it starts causing problems at the level of reality, it will look rather foolish for them to not reconsider it.
"FMOP is causing a lot of problems for the EU." Do you have a source for that?

True a part of Brexit was the concern about immigration but there are almost as many non-EU immigrants in UK as there are EU citizens and FMOP is only about EU people.

There are concerns in Europe about refugees but that has nothing to do with FMOP.

According to this report only 35% of Europeans believe countries should have the right to limit the influx of workers from other EU Countries?
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  #7504  
Old 18.01.2017, 00:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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But that is not what the supporters of BREXIT want! They are looking for full access to the single market with out being subject to the rules of that market.
Stick to expressing your own views, please Jim. Don't presume to speak on my behalf, or on behalf of the 17.5m who voted to leave the EU.

I might "want" free beer and world peace and an end to global warning, but this doesn't mean I expect to get all of it, or that I'll start ranting and raving if I get none of it. It's time we stopped talking about what people "want" from Brexit, but what people expect, and what they would settle for.

So in an ideal world I would like free trade with the ability to manage our own immigration levels according to need, plus no membership of the EU parliament and to be free from the Euro courts. A group of friendly countries with free trade and sensible, humane migration management. Apparently this is impossible, so a hard Brexit it is and what I would accept. I don't know why complete freedom of movement of people is essential in order to have a reciprocal no tariff trade agreement, but there we are. Apparently it can't be done. So no single market membership for the UK. Let's accept that and get on with it.
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  #7505  
Old 18.01.2017, 03:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"FMOP is causing a lot of problems for the EU." Do you have a source for that?

True a part of Brexit was the concern about immigration but there are almost as many non-EU immigrants in UK as there are EU citizens and FMOP is only about EU people.

There are concerns in Europe about refugees but that has nothing to do with FMOP.

According to this report only 35% of Europeans believe countries should have the right to limit the influx of workers from other EU Countries?
With all due respect, Marton, I believe that you are wrong. To me, concern over immigration wasn't merely a "part" of Brexit but THE driving force behind the referendum itself. But since I'm on this side of the Atlantic, you can take my opinions with a truckload (or lorryload) of salt.
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  #7506  
Old 18.01.2017, 08:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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With all due respect, Marton, I believe that you are wrong. To me, concern over immigration wasn't merely a "part" of Brexit but THE driving force behind the referendum itself. But since I'm on this side of the Atlantic, you can take my opinions with a truckload (or lorryload) of salt.
You are probably correct but when you ask people why they voted for Brexit the usually say " Oh no, I am not racist, it was about sovereignty!"

Pass the salt!
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  #7507  
Old 18.01.2017, 08:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You are probably correct but when you ask people why they voted for Brexit the usually say " Oh no, I am not racist, it was about sovereignty!"

Pass the salt!
"Racism". Against mainly white Europeans.

You still don't really get it, do you?
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  #7508  
Old 18.01.2017, 08:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"Racism". Against mainly white Europeans.

You still don't really get it, do you?
Given that over 50% of UK immigration comes from outside the EU ( but somehow the Brexiters manage to blame on the EU of course) I think it's you that doesn't get it.

Edit - only since 2013 has it even been close to 50% EU. Before that non-EU were massively more. A figure that of course always was in the UK's own control.
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  #7509  
Old 18.01.2017, 08:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You are probably correct but when you ask people why they voted for Brexit the usually say " Oh no, I am not racist, it was about sovereignty!"

Pass the salt!
The EU is an organisation which grants privileges to Swedes and Estonians in the United Kingdom which are denied Pakistanis and Jamaicans, despite our shared history and heritage.


And you have the gall to accuse us of racism?


For me the vote was mainly about sovereignty. Corruption, incompetence and racism, too - but mainly sovereignty.


Careful with that salt. It'll give you high blood pressure.
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Old 18.01.2017, 08:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The EU is an organisation which grants privileges to Swedes and Estonians in the United Kingdom which are denied Pakistanis and Jamaicans, despite our shared history and heritage.


And you have the gall to accuse us of racism?


For me the vote was mainly about sovereignty. Corruption, incompetence and racism, too - but mainly sovereignty.


Careful with that salt. It'll give you high blood pressure.
"The EU is an organisation which grants privileges to Swedes and Estonians in the United Kingdom which are denied Pakistanis and Jamaicans, despite our shared history and heritage." Privileges and denials that the UK voted for
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  #7511  
Old 18.01.2017, 09:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Stick to expressing your own views, please Jim. Don't presume to speak on my behalf, or on behalf of the 17.5m who voted to leave the EU.
You might want to tell that to the UK politicians, newspapers, pressure groups etc... because that is what we are hearing day after day!
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  #7512  
Old 18.01.2017, 09:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The EU is an organisation which grants privileges to Swedes and Estonians in the United Kingdom which are denied Pakistanis and Jamaicans, despite our shared history and heritage.
The UK decided to join the EU, the UK participated in those decisions without resorting to a veto and confirmed every treaty change and on top of that the UK alone gets to decide the citizenship rights of Pakistanis, Jamaicans and all other residents in the UK.

If a shared history and heritage was of such concern, then why does the UK not simple grant full UK citizenship to all such persons. The EU has absolutely no role is such a decision.
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Old 18.01.2017, 09:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"Racism". Against mainly white Europeans.

You still don't really get it, do you?
Well all we here about is stopping the FMOP, we don't hear any of the team BREXIT jumping up and down demanding anything else....
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Old 18.01.2017, 09:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The EU is an organisation which grants privileges to Swedes and Estonians in the United Kingdom which are denied Pakistanis and Jamaicans, despite our shared history and heritage.


And you have the gall to accuse us of racism?


For me the vote was mainly about sovereignty. Corruption, incompetence and racism, too - but mainly sovereignty.


Careful with that salt. It'll give you high blood pressure.
Which part of the > 50% of UK immigration being from outside the EU did you not understand?

Oh and I love the bit about shared history. In Pakistan we militarily nicked their country and imposed British rule on them whether they liked it or not. And a pretty high proportion of present day Jamacians are there because their ancestory were dragged over from Africa as slaves after we (one way or another) killed the original population. A lovely shared history that is.

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Old 18.01.2017, 09:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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FMOP is causing a lot of problems for the EU.
To date the only country who might ask for a reconsideration of FMOP is Austria and that depends on the elections there. Can you provide an concrete examples to support this statement? There are concerns regarding the influx of refugees etc.. but that is not the same as demands that the EU changes it's FMOP with respect to citizens.
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Old 18.01.2017, 09:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well all we here about is stopping the FMOP, we don't hear any of the team BREXIT jumping up and down demanding anything else....
Wishing to have control over immigration is not the same as being racist. Hope this helps.

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Old 18.01.2017, 10:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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To date the only country who might ask for a reconsideration of FMOP is Austria and that depends on the elections there. Can you provide an concrete examples to support this statement? There are concerns regarding the influx of refugees etc.. but that is not the same as demands that the EU changes it's FMOP with respect to citizens.
FMOP is the current battle line with Brexit in public discussions. Elsewhere, FMOP is driving the upsurge of right wing populism; AfD, Le Pen, Geert Wilders, etc. Of course it goes deeper. Ultimately, it is about national sovereignty.

National sovereignty strikes me as a universally recognised principle. Whereas the EU's 4 pillars are the ideals of the organisation. They aren't really on par, and I wouldn't consider an ideal to supercede a principle.

An ideal is suppose to provide an optimally beneficial condition. When it doesn't, then it really isn't "ideal" afterall. The EU really needs to consider whether or not its 4 pillars is really delivering intended value to its members. But it does not seem to care enough to look and reconsider. It is not taking a pragmatic position.

I think one can trade off an ideal for pragmatism, but generally inadvisable to trade off a principle.
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Old 18.01.2017, 10:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Ultimately, it is about national sovereignty.
What it all comes down to is whether you could envisage a European nation or not and you would not as you do not feel you have enough in common. Unfortunately this translates to xenophobia all too often.
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National sovereignty strikes me as a universally recognised principle.
Depends on what you mean by sovereignty. Pretty much every nation on the planet has sacrificed some degree of sovereignty in return for diplomatic gain. Whether it is in relation the ICJ, trade agreements, border agreements, UN, NATO, and so on. Also many nations are parts of greater unions - for example, Scotland doesn't exactly have all it's sovereignty, does it?

So, sovereignty is not an immutable principle and claiming it is is simply false.
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Whereas the EU's 4 pillars are the ideals of the organisation. They aren't really on par, and I wouldn't consider an ideal to supercede a principle.
If you are seeking to build a European nation (the Eurosceptic nightmare scenario), then they are core components of any European sovereignty - not ideals on a wish list but essential principles.

So these may be unimportant ideals for you, but you don't share the same aims as some Europhiles, so unsurprisingly it's really just your opinion again.
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I think one can trade off an ideal for pragmatism, but generally inadvisable to trade off a principle.
Well, that's just bollocks; just you claiming "my principles are valid and I judge yours not to be". I'd just as easily suggest that what you've argued are principles are simply petty remnants of tribalism that are frankly dangerous anachronisms, better off jettisoned in the modern World.
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Old 18.01.2017, 10:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well, that's just bollocks; just you claiming "my principles are valid and I judge yours not to be".
The holder of said principle gets to decide that, which is sovereignty by definition.
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Old 18.01.2017, 10:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Which part of the > 50% of UK immigration being from outside the EU did you not understand?

EU immigrants still get unfair privileges, even if they do make up less than 50% of immigrants to the United Kingdom. It's a matter of principle, not numbers.

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Oh and I love the bit about shared history. In Pakistan we militarily nicked their country and imposed British rule on them whether they liked it or not. And a pretty high proportion of present day Jamacians are there because their ancestory were dragged over from Africa as slaves after we (one way or another) killed the original population. A lovely shared history that is.
I never said it was lovely. But it is a fact that a Pakistani or a Jamaican is likely to have existing family links - with associated cultural links - in the United Kingdom that a Rumanian or a Lithuanian isn't likely to have.


We can't just pretend that the Empire and the Commonwealth didn't exist. They shaped the United Kingdom just as they shaped India, Bangladesh, South Africa and elsewhere. Some acknowledgment of that wouldn't go amiss.


But no. To prove we're not racist, we have to open the doors to any random white northern European, while closing the doors to people who arguably have much more of a right to settle in the United Kingdom, and who - coincidentally, I'm sure - happen to be largely black or brown.


If that's not fcked up thinking, I don't know what is.
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