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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #9501  
Old 10.08.2017, 13:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

A friend asked an interesting question today, your thoughts?

'Is it possible that Trump could help us reverse Brexit?

If he decides to bomb NK and WWIII is triggered. Do we run to USA or to a unified EU? Do we protect ourselves by siding with EU which in turn finally understand why we're in the EU or do we attack with Trump.
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  #9502  
Old 10.08.2017, 13:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You can dress it up how you want mate. The conditions of the vote were printed on the ballot paper. People had their voices heard. Get over it.
Yes, and they were on the side fo a bus, in the Daily Mail and the Sun- by Murdoch and co- and all over TV interviews and debates. Any contract won on fraudulent claims in any business is null and void- same in this case. People were told we couldn't limit immigration without Brexit- it was a plain lie. Were told we would stay in Customs Union, stay in Single Market - and so much more. Lies, lies and more lies- and you know that for sure. Nobody is asking for a second referendum- but a vote on the final deal- and you know full well that that is a totally different issue.
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  #9503  
Old 10.08.2017, 13:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No reason to think that the wish of the country has changed
According to this recent article, it hasn't.

The Economist: Most Leavers want a hard Brexit. Voters at large want a soft one

"A YEAR on from the referendum, few Britons have changed their minds about whether to stay or go. Polls find that, were there another vote, the result would be similar to the 52:48 split last June. They also show that most Remainers concede that Brexit should go ahead."

I doubt that there will be a shift in opinion as most people don't like admitting to being wrong. Remainers will continue blaming problems on Brexit, Leavers will continue blaming problems on the EU. Further argument will make both sides even more entrenched. I think the only way that Leavers might admit they were wrong is if Brexit was painful for most people (though they might still prefer to blame the EU, especially if the Brexit-supporting press was still banging the drum for Brexit) and the only way Remainers might admit Brexit was right is if it improved life all round. I know which outcome I think is more likely, but then I'm biased!
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  #9504  
Old 10.08.2017, 14:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A friend asked an interesting question today, your thoughts?

'Is it possible that Trump could help us reverse Brexit?

If he decides to bomb NK and WWIII is triggered. Do we run to USA or to a unified EU? Do we protect ourselves by siding with EU which in turn finally understand why we're in the EU or do we attack with Trump.
This isn't the same EU by any chance whose mebership essentially corresponds to NATO and which has NATO and US bases all over?
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  #9505  
Old 10.08.2017, 14:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Yes, and they were on the side fo a bus, in the Daily Mail and the Sun- by Murdoch and co- and all over TV interviews and debates. Any contract won on fraudulent claims in any business is null and void- same in this case. People were told we couldn't limit immigration without Brexit- it was a plain lie. Were told we would stay in Customs Union, stay in Single Market - and so much more. Lies, lies and more lies- and you know that for sure. Nobody is asking for a second referendum- but a vote on the final deal- and you know full well that that is a totally different issue.
I never realized there was a bus on the ballot slip.
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  #9506  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The only one dressing it up is YOU. Every democracy has a right to change its mind. You want to argue it, fine, but then you do it on the facts - legally referenda are advisory in the U.K. because they have a sovereign parliament (fact). The consequences of a sovereign parliament is that they can fully commit the country to any international agreement they wish, as they have done for the past 40 years (fact).
Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament.

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There is nothing preventing the next parliament from reversing the current decisions on BREXIT or anything else if they believe it is the wishes of the voters (fact).
Other than the REAL vote that was already held.
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  #9507  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No harm in asking them, just to make sure then, I suppose.
Switzerland acceded to Schengen in 2005 with a vote of 55% for to 45% against. Where's the second referendum to check if people are still happy with this result?
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  #9508  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Switzerland acceded to Schengen in 2005 with a vote of 55% for to 45% against. Where's the second referendum to check if people are still happy with this result?
Surely you know that all EU countries hold referendums every five years to confirm that the people still want to be members. And for the countries that don't do this, Odile is at the front of the line demanding that democratic accountability.

And when a referendum doesn't return the result the EU wants, the EU would never ever demand a repeat of that refrendum.

This is why the EU is completely legitimated by democracy.
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  #9509  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament.
You sound like like a rapper who forgot his dentures at home..
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  #9510  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Surely you know that all EU countries hold referendums every five years to confirm that the people still want to be members. And for the countries that don't do this, Odile is at the front of the line demanding that democratic accountability.

And when a referendum doesn't return the result the EU wants, the EU would never ever demand a repeat of that refrendum.

This is why the EU is completely legitimated by democracy.
Absolute rubbish!

"The United Kingdom is the only EU member state to have held referendums on the issue of continued membership of the European Union and its antecedent organisation, the European Communities."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refere...European_Union
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  #9511  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:21
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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People were told we couldn't limit immigration without Brexit- it was a plain lie.
Or, you can say that they heard what they wanted to hear. It is not undemocratic.

Politics, media...business like any other.
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  #9512  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I'll let Jacob Rees-Mogg make it clear for the hard of accepting:

“You are either in the European Union or you leave it. This is not only my view, this is the view of Donald Tusk, one of the Presidents of the European Union, who said: “there is no such thing as hard and soft Brexit, there is being in the European Union or out.” If we are out of the European Union, we cannot have our laws by the European Court of Justice, we cannot have all our regulations set by being in the internal market and we can’t lose all our trading opportunities by being in the customs union. And this was clear at the election. I brought a quotation in case this came up, from Wolfgang Schäuble, a very senior German politician. He let the cat out of the bag after the referendum because he said he’d been asked to say this by one George Osborne, the then Chancellor. And he said: “If the majority in Britain opt for Brexit that would be a decision against the single market”. In is in, out is out. We knew what we were voting for, we voted and democracy must deliver.”
"And this was clear at the election. " Clear? Which election? There was a referendum, not an election?
Please explain to us who are "hard of accepting", whatever "hard of accepting" means in English!
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  #9513  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Or, you can say that they heard what they wanted to hear. It is not undemocratic.

Politics, media...business like any other.
People's decisons are - for the most part - not based on logic but on emotion. They then twist logic to justify what their emotion dictates.

Elections are for the most part won or lost on emotions.

Hillary lost because people preferred a bon vivant businessman over a bitter and angry woman who publically professed her hate of deplorables.

Brexit won because few people have positive emotional bonds to burocrats and meddlers.

Maybe shades of the "wong but romantic" vs "right but repulsive" theme.
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  #9514  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Switzerland acceded to Schengen in 2005 with a vote of 55% for to 45% against. Where's the second referendum to check if people are still happy with this result?
No need, that was a large majority unlike....

Anyway Switzerland is a pretty poor example for you but good for me, we often have multiple referendums on the same topic.
On the EU topic Switzerland has had multiple referenda in the years listed;

1972
1997
2000
2002
2005
2006
2009
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  #9515  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"And this was clear at the election. " Clear? Which election? There was a referendum, not an election?
Please explain to us who are "hard of accepting", whatever "hard of accepting" means in English!
How about the re-election of Cameron and the Tory party - of which part of the party manifesto was to hold a referendum on staying in the EU. If people hadn't wanted that they should have voted Labour.

"Hard of accepting" is you and everyone else who thinks that somehow we're going to have some sort of "soft" exit. Well, we're not. We voted out: no single market, no free movement. Accept it!
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  #9516  
Old 10.08.2017, 15:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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People's decisons are - for the most part - not based on logic but on emotion. They then twist logic to justify what their emotion dictates.

Elections are for the most part won or lost on emotions.

Hillary lost because people preferred a bon vivant businessman over a bitter and angry woman who publically professed her hate of deplorables.

Brexit won because few people have positive emotional bonds to burocrats and meddlers.

Maybe shades of the "wong but romantic" vs "right but repulsive" theme.
I think how credible data is - is on the spectrum, for most people. The good thing is that massive part of voters, decent folks, will learn from being tricked. We don't usually fall for populism too many times and for too long. Political backpaddling is progress, too, if you look at different results it yields between the different referenda.

Emotions aren't the worst compass...People get angry after somebody tricks them and things improve. It is like a repeating bad business, it is rare.

Hillary lost not because anger would get out of fashion but because she showed lack of empathy and relied on fake AA. There is zero notion of accountability. Business needs that, even if it never happens, some method of checking is still there.
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  #9517  
Old 10.08.2017, 16:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No need, that was a large majority unlike....

Anyway Switzerland is a pretty poor example for you but good for me, we often have multiple referendums on the same topic.
On the EU topic Switzerland has had multiple referenda in the years listed;

1972
1997
2000
2002
2005
2006
2009
Very liberal there with what constituted a referendum for membership of the EU. Never mind, the Swiss are firmly set against it, and rightly so, as the below video shows. The arguments they use for Switzerland not joining up with the EU are very much the same ones that the Leave campaign used for leaving the EU. Funny that.



EDIT: Just found the same video in English


Last edited by Loz1983; 10.08.2017 at 16:43. Reason: found video in English
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  #9518  
Old 10.08.2017, 17:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

[QUOTE=Loz1983;2829026]Very liberal there with what constituted a referendum for membership of the EU. Never mind, the Swiss are firmly set against it, and rightly so, as the below video shows. The arguments they use for Switzerland not joining up with the EU are very much the same ones that the Leave campaign used for leaving the EU. Funny that.

EDIT: Just found the same video in English

You seem to be confused, Switzerland is in the EU single market, Schengen and free movement of people.
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  #9519  
Old 10.08.2017, 17:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament. Blah blah blah democracy blah blah blah advisory blah blah blah sovereign parliament.
Terrible when the facts collide with ones opinion....
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  #9520  
Old 10.08.2017, 18:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Switzerland is in the EU single market
Not from a customs point of view.

Tom
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