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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #9661  
Old 05.09.2017, 10:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why should an authority, any authority, dictate what kind of vacuum cleaner you use?

Any process which removes a layer of government dictating what you can and can't do is a good thing.
But there will not be a layer of Govt. removed, you do not seem to understand what Brexit will deliver?.

Whatever EU authority was responsible to issue this directive will simply be duplicated in the UK after Brexit.
Anyway the power limit only applies to "domestic" vacuum cleaners you can still buy more powerful "commercial/industrial" vacuum cleaners.
This law is not new; the limit for vacuum cleaners was 1,600W and is now reduced to 900W.

From Which magazine "But the reduction in power is no cause for panic. Over the past 60 years we have tested thousands of vacuum cleaners and found that motor size is very rarely an indicator of cleaning ability."

From Dyson "“When the ErP (Energy related Products) legislation was first mooted, we were campaigning for lower limits – in fact we wanted a 700 watt limit,” " He said he can make a 700W vacuum that cleans as well as ones with more powerful motors.

Read here.
The UK Govt. supported the idea so Brexit will not change this!
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  #9662  
Old 05.09.2017, 11:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why should an authority, any authority, dictate what kind of vacuum cleaner you use?

Any process which removes a layer of government dictating what you can and can't do is a good thing.
Because the climate is seriously f**ked and they're trying to moderate the amount the level of upf**kedess. Little more than window dressing I acknowledge but even "little more" is better than absolutely nothing.

Regulation of this type is beneficial as it forces a rethink on the part of manufacturers to make equipment more efficient in areas where most people simply don't think about it - otherwise allowing the manufacturers to sit on their collective ar**s and do nothing meaningful.
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  #9663  
Old 05.09.2017, 11:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Jeremy Corbyn will instruct his MPs to vote against the Repeal Bill at the conclusion of its second reading next week, according to reports.

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Every week a different approach?
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  #9664  
Old 05.09.2017, 11:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why should an authority, any authority, dictate what kind of vacuum cleaner you use?

Any process which removes a layer of government dictating what you can and can't do is a good thing.
Except it's only the DM which is using vocabulary such as "dictating" and "forcing" just to pump up its readers and garner the clicks and shares.

In reality, it's just technology has moved on and the power to performance has improved massively.

Nobody seems to be complaining that vacuum cleaners are now costing buttons compared to how they were priced 25 years ago. Nope, everyone is clutching at their pearls over the fact they are having their 'yuman rights' chipped away because the tabloids told them they are being forced to buy a vacuum cleaner that sucks (or not).

EU or non-EU, this kind of household tech is always going to move on. Microwaves, hairdryers, washing machines, lightbulbs - likely all use less power but run more efficiently (faster, hotter, quicker, cleaner) but the good old Daily Mail or The Sun are using as dog-whistle journalism.
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  #9665  
Old 05.09.2017, 12:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Jeremy Corbyn will instruct his MPs to vote against the Repeal Bill at the conclusion of its second reading next week, according to reports.

Source

Every week a different approach?
Not really. The concern they have expressed from the start is over the massive powers the bill gives to ministers (the "Henry VIII powers") without parliamentary scrutiny.

I agree they appear to be in the process of rethinking their stance on the Single Market but that is not the prime reason for objecting to the bill (at the moment).

BTW for those without access through the Telegraph paywall you can see the story here https://www.theguardian.com/politics...acuum-grayling
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  #9666  
Old 05.09.2017, 12:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The Mail and their ilk know that they have an older demographic reading who all think it used to be better back in the olden days (of course it was, you were virile and active, so everything was better, even if it was worse).
Lightbulbs, Vacuum Cleaners, Car Emissions etc being regulated feels to them like stealing a slice of their childhood, but really it is just sensible progress, which negatively affects precisely nobody and improves the lives of many.
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  #9667  
Old 05.09.2017, 13:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Why should an authority, any authority, dictate what kind of vacuum cleaner you use?
If you can accept that power is a finite resource which costs money in the form of imports to provide, conserving that power where possible is an eminently sensible thing to do.

That's before we get to the subject of pollution.

It always struck me as crazy that there was a marketing race amongst vacuum cleaner manufacturers to make ever more powerful kit, when a much more modest wattage will do the job quite nicely. That VAX vacuum cleaner I once had had so much suck that it was sheer hard work fighting against, and I am no weakling. In other words, so much power was pointless most of the time.

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Any process which removes a layer of government dictating what you can and can't do is a good thing.
There's a difference between removing a layer and dismantling the entire structure.
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  #9668  
Old 05.09.2017, 13:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Because the climate is seriously f**ked and they're trying to moderate the amount the level of upf**kedess. Little more than window dressing I acknowledge but even "little more" is better than absolutely nothing.

Regulation of this type is beneficial as it forces a rethink on the part of manufacturers to make equipment more efficient in areas where most people simply don't think about it - otherwise allowing the manufacturers to sit on their collective ar**s and do nothing meaningful.
1. How often are vacuum cleaners in use at any one time?
2. How much carbon does their use even produce?
3. Europe's biggest manufacturer of vacuum cleaners (Dyson, who's boss also happens to support Brexit) never used such high power motors. Most vacuum cleaners don't require so much power.
Which leads to 4. What is the point in regulating it when the benefit is going to be negligible.
5. Meanwhile virtually all EU countries offer subsidies and tax breaks on owning a diesel vehicle. What was that about the environment again?

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In reality, it's just technology has moved on and the power to performance has improved massively.

Nobody seems to be complaining that vacuum cleaners are now costing buttons compared to how they were priced 25 years ago. Nope, everyone is clutching at their pearls over the fact they are having their 'yuman rights' chipped away because the tabloids told them they are being forced to buy a vacuum cleaner that sucks (or not).

EU or non-EU, this kind of household tech is always going to move on. Microwaves, hairdryers, washing machines, lightbulbs - likely all use less power but run more efficiently (faster, hotter, quicker, cleaner) but the good old Daily Mail or The Sun are using as dog-whistle journalism.
If technology is already doing the job, then why does this need to be regulated?
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  #9669  
Old 05.09.2017, 14:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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If technology is already doing the job, then why does this need to be regulated?
Not quite sure what relevance this question is but maybe you can answer it with another question: would it be doing the job if it wasn't regulated?
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Old 05.09.2017, 14:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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3. Europe's biggest manufacturer of vacuum cleaners (Dyson, who's boss also happens to support Brexit) never used such high power motors. Most vacuum cleaners don't require so much power.
Nope. He manufactures them in Singapore so already has to pay WTO tariffs, that's why he doesn't get a flying fudge about Brexit and losing preferential rates. In fact, it will give his company a boost compared to other european manufacturers. Alles klar!
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Old 05.09.2017, 15:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Nope. He manufactures them in Singapore so already has to pay WTO tariffs, that's why he doesn't get a flying fudge about Brexit and losing preferential rates. In fact, it will give his company a boost compared to other european manufacturers. Alles klar!
The EU is not that big a market v whole world, people need to understand that.
Protectionism is a bad thing.
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  #9672  
Old 05.09.2017, 15:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not quite sure what relevance this question is but maybe you can answer it with another question: would it be doing the job if it wasn't regulated?
I believe so, yes. Higher efficiency is by nature market driven, not regulation enforced.
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  #9673  
Old 05.09.2017, 15:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The EU is not that big a market v whole world, people need to understand that.
Protectionism is a bad thing.
EU is not so small!
Exports exceed imports which is more than the US can manage!

See chart below; of course the chart is a bit old and includes UK.
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Old 05.09.2017, 15:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I believe so, yes. Higher efficiency is by nature market driven, not regulation enforced.
In a perfect vacuum of an economy yes.

However, there are external factors that are not priced into this. The future cost of cleaning up the environment, of relocating millions, tens of millions etc of people displaced due to climate change, these things are not priced into the market.

That's why we have regulations to at worst levy charges on companies to pay for this future catastrophe or at best, enforce law changes that divert us away from the catastrophe ever happening.
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Old 05.09.2017, 15:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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2. How much carbon does their use even produce?
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While you’re unlikely to see a noticeable reduction in your energy bills at home, the EU estimates that the amount of energy saved as a result of the label will be 20TWh annually, that’s equivalent to the residential electricity consumption of Belgium.
From Which?

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I believe so, yes. Higher efficiency is by nature market driven, not regulation enforced.
Maybe, yes. Unless you get all the sentimental old dolls who can't bear to give up their 1974 Hoover SuperSuck.
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  #9676  
Old 05.09.2017, 15:35
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I believe so, yes. Higher efficiency is by nature market driven, not regulation enforced.
No. There is no incentive for companies to improve the efficiency of a product unless there is a clear market demand for it...and in the case of many/most small appliances they are typically marketed on the basis of power and not efficiency.

Markets drive companies to be efficient in their own processes but not necessarily the efficiency of their products. Vacuum cleaners are almost always marketed on the basis of "powerful XXXX watt motor" and almost never on any objectively measured actual real world cleaning performance.

Even with cars - where you would expect the market to drive efficiency as people see the cost rather directly every time they fill up - there has been much more push for efficiency through regulation and financial penalties than the market ever delivered before.
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  #9677  
Old 05.09.2017, 16:29
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Apologies for the Daily Mail link, but:

Ye olde vampire slaying kit: Victorian oak box complete with wooden stakes, garlic paste and vials of holy water up for auction



The case contains 1) a rosary 2) crucifix 3) a handwritten psalm (Luke 20:27) 4) a pistol 5) four oak stakes 6) a bottle of consecrated earth 7) a common prayer book 8) a wooden mallet 9) silver bullet mold 10) a cloth 11) two glass bottles containing garlic paste and holy water
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  #9678  
Old 05.09.2017, 16:40
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In a perfect vacuum of an economy yes.

However, there are external factors that are not priced into this. The future cost of cleaning up the environment, of relocating millions, tens of millions etc of people displaced due to climate change, these things are not priced into the market.

That's why we have regulations to at worst levy charges on companies to pay for this future catastrophe or at best, enforce law changes that divert us away from the catastrophe ever happening.
What rainy day fund pot is the government putting tax money from vacuum cleaners into that is reserved for cleaning up the efects of climate change?
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Old 05.09.2017, 16:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I believe so, yes. Higher efficiency is by nature market driven, not regulation enforced.
Of course it can be. See general fossil fuel efficiency for example.

Fossil fuels are largely untaxed in North America, especially compared to Europe. As a result of the generally higher price Europe is roughly twice as energy efficient, Europeans consume roughly half the amount US-Americans do.
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Old 05.09.2017, 16:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No. There is no incentive for companies to improve the efficiency of a product unless there is a clear market demand for it...and in the case of many/most small appliances they are typically marketed on the basis of power and not efficiency.

Markets drive companies to be efficient in their own processes but not necessarily the efficiency of their products. Vacuum cleaners are almost always marketed on the basis of "powerful XXXX watt motor" and almost never on any objectively measured actual real world cleaning performance.

Even with cars - where you would expect the market to drive efficiency as people see the cost rather directly every time they fill up - there has been much more push for efficiency through regulation and financial penalties than the market ever delivered before.
Partly true.

But as we have seen, even if the government says your car must be this and this efficient, the manufacturers produce a software hack that helps them pass the test without actually being that efficient. Strange that it took a test lab to catch that one, and that all the tens of thousands of drivers who fill their cars regularly never noticed they weren't getting the fuel efficiency they payed for.

Consumers are ultimately clueless and the statistics manufacturers produce cannot easily be translated into verifiable facts. In my view labelling criteria need to revised to reflect something consumers can actually see and relate to.
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