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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #9681  
Old 05.09.2017, 16:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What rainy day fund pot is the government putting tax money from vacuum cleaners into that is reserved for cleaning up the efects of climate change?
Instead of raising a tax on companies' overpowered vacs, they have regulated the maximum power. Do keep up.
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  #9682  
Old 05.09.2017, 17:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Partly true.

But as we have seen, even if the government says your car must be this and this efficient, the manufacturers produce a software hack that helps them pass the test without actually being that efficient. Strange that it took a test lab to catch that one, and that all the tens of thousands of drivers who fill their cars regularly never noticed they weren't getting the fuel efficiency they payed for.

Consumers are ultimately clueless and the statistics manufacturers produce cannot easily be translated into verifiable facts. In my view labelling criteria need to revised to reflect something consumers can actually see and relate to.
You're mixing fuel efficiency (which consumers should notice but often don't) with the emissions issue (which consumers can't reasonably measure for themselves). However the principal isn't too wrong...
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  #9683  
Old 05.09.2017, 17:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Partly true.

But as we have seen, even if the government says your car must be this and this efficient, the manufacturers produce a software hack that helps them pass the test without actually being that efficient. Strange that it took a test lab to catch that one, and that all the tens of thousands of drivers who fill their cars regularly never noticed they weren't getting the fuel efficiency they payed for.

Consumers are ultimately clueless and the statistics manufacturers produce cannot easily be translated into verifiable facts. In my view labeling criteria need to revised to reflect something consumers can actually see and relate to.
To be honest, though, that's nothing new. The way they used to test fuel efficiency even before there were any sneaky engine management chips, hacks or workarounds was phoney. Running on rollers with no wind resistance at a constant speed with no incline, perfectly tuned engine, no passengers, no luggage. A fuel efficiency not even my smooth-as-silk driving father could hope to get to.
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  #9684  
Old 05.09.2017, 17:39
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The problem with the test is, it must be repeatable and each run must be identical. Thus it can't involve humans behind the steering wheel, for instance, or go on an actual tour.

Using non-identical conditions (for instance by using averags of actual tours with a person behind the wheel) opens up the whole thing to even more manipulation.

That may be resolvable soon-ish with self-driving cars but even then you may be able to design your software to recognise the situation. For instance a machine may keep the gas pedal much more steadily than a human driver. So once the software recognises that, it may again switch to "test mode".

Somewhat random pedal movements by the automaton OTOH would render the conditions non-identical thus test non-repeatable.

Relying on real-world consumption (which is just a guess to begin with) doesn't work either as car companbies can always claim John Doe doesn't know how to properly drive, or Jane Q always has the air condition on so they use way more than actually necessary.

Relying on onboard data (every reasonably modern engine registers how much fuel it burned, the mileage it clocked, etc) is even trickier because you rely even more on the car industry.

As ever so often the devil's in the detail.
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  #9685  
Old 05.09.2017, 18:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The problem with the test is, it must be repeatable and each run must be identical. Thus it can't involve humans behind the steering wheel, for instance, or go on an actual tour.

Using non-identical conditions (for instance by using averags of actual tours with a person behind the wheel) opens up the whole thing to even more manipulation.

That may be resolvable soon-ish with self-driving cars but even then you may be able to design your software to recognise the situation. For instance a machine may keep the gas pedal much more steadily than a human driver. So once the software recognises that, it may again switch to "test mode".

.
On a self-driving car, the software design is part of the car design. So it should also be part of the test.

So rather than saying this car needs this many liters per this many km, you say, on average and leaving a defined location in Zürich at 4pm on a work day with a payload of 110kg, this car needs this much petrol to get to a defined location in Bern. The standard deviation is this much. The bad to good weather coefficient is this much. The air conditioning is this much extra. If you have a window open its this. Anything the software does is part of the car's engieering. So if you have a very efficient engine but a very stupid software, so what? The car is not efficient and the manufacturer should be honest about it or fix it. And because the car is self driving, there is no longer a difference between grandad's style and the boy racer's style. Much more difficult to manipulate. Statistics could be collected from real cases rather than artificial situations.
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  #9686  
Old 05.09.2017, 18:04
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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And from the latest round of negotiations its clear that the EU is shitting bricks that they're not going to get any money out of the UK. The move not to publish any paper on the financial settlement is proving to be a good one.
Back to the old matra... it's about 5% of the budget, a couple of cents per day spread over about 450m citizens. Get over it!

And there will be no amount to calculate until the U.K. address the method issue. But if they want to squander the 19 months remaining that is on them.
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  #9687  
Old 05.09.2017, 23:24
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Leaked document reveals UK Brexit plan to deter EU immigrants

Britain will end the free movement of labour immediately after Brexit and introduce restrictions to deter all but highly-skilled EU workers under detailed proposals set out in a Home Office document leaked to the Guardian.

The 82-page paper, marked as extremely sensitive and dated August 2017, sets out for the first time how Britain intends to approach the politically charged issue of immigration, dramatically refocusing policy to put British workers first.

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They seem to have put more work and design into this than into the Brexit position papers.
Likely will be a hard sell to the EU if UK want to protect UK citizens in the EU long term.
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  #9688  
Old 06.09.2017, 08:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Leaked document reveals UK Brexit plan to deter EU immigrants

Britain will end the free movement of labour immediately after Brexit and introduce restrictions to deter all but highly-skilled EU workers under detailed proposals set out in a Home Office document leaked to the Guardian.

The 82-page paper, marked as extremely sensitive and dated August 2017, sets out for the first time how Britain intends to approach the politically charged issue of immigration, dramatically refocusing policy to put British workers first.

Source

They seem to have put more work and design into this than into the Brexit position papers.
Likely will be a hard sell to the EU if UK want to protect UK citizens in the EU long term.
Seems very similar to the Swiss system. Welcome to come, just send a CV first.
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  #9689  
Old 06.09.2017, 08:56
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Back to the old matra... it's about 5% of the budget, a couple of cents per day spread over about 450m citizens. Get over it!

And there will be no amount to calculate until the U.K. address the method issue. But if they want to squander the 19 months remaining that is on them.
Money is the main thing that concerns the EU at the present time. If you don't see that then more fool you.

The EU also know that the UK can also walk away from the table without facing a backlash from voters. If the government can demonstrate that they've tried to negotiate but the EU were unreasonable then the people will accept no deal. This *should* also concern them, though I doubt it will.
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  #9690  
Old 06.09.2017, 09:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Seems very similar to the Swiss system. Welcome to come, just send a CV first.
So we are now openly discussing a Swiss solution for the UK?
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  #9691  
Old 06.09.2017, 10:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So we are now openly discussing a Swiss solution for the UK?
Seems reasonable enough. Or an Australian solution. Anyone should be welcome to come, but they should have something they can offer in return.
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  #9692  
Old 06.09.2017, 10:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So we are now openly discussing a Swiss solution for the UK?
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Seems reasonable enough. Or an Australian solution. Anyone should be welcome to come, but they should have something they can offer in return.
Like marriage?

In Switzerland an EU person can marry a Swiss and, in most cases, be allowed to stay (actually we are talking about EU here, so you automatically have the right to stay, right?) but in the UK, you don't.

May is smoothing over the cracks saying that EU people will have the right to remain after the UK leaves but there seem to be a load of mumbled, unclear and contradictory conditions attached to it.

So it's not really like the Swiss system. Or it is. Or it might be. Or maybe nobody has a clue how it's going to be, or what they're doing.
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  #9693  
Old 06.09.2017, 12:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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From Which?


While you’re unlikely to see a noticeable reduction in your energy bills at home, the EU estimates that the amount of energy saved as a result of the label will be 20TWh annually, that’s equivalent to the residential electricity consumption of Belgium.
The same EU that "estimated" they could relocated 160,000 migrants throughout Europe

Speaking of which, the ECJ has just ruled that EU countries have to accept the compulsory fixed-quota scheme for relocating migrants. Who'd have thought? Now things will get interesting.
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  #9694  
Old 06.09.2017, 12:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The same EU that "estimated" they could relocated 160,000 migrants throughout Europe

Speaking of which, the ECJ has just ruled that EU countries have to accept the compulsory fixed-quota scheme for relocating migrants. Who'd have thought? Now things will get interesting.
I'm sure Dervid Dervis will be charging in to negotiate his way out of his paper bag.
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  #9695  
Old 06.09.2017, 14:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Money is the main thing that concerns the EU at the present time. If you don't see that then more fool you.
Money is the main concern of the U.K. because someone has to bring home the bad news. Requiring states to honor their commitments is the concern of the EU.

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The EU also know that the UK can also walk away from the table without facing a backlash from voters. If the government can demonstrate that they've tried to negotiate but the EU were unreasonable then the people will accept no deal. This *should* also concern them, though I doubt it will.[
So why don't they just walk away??? The only reason that Davis is up there grinning let a Cheshire Cat, is because they badly need a deal! I see TM has realized she might get caught holding the hot potato - now she wants more talks! Of course it does not matter unless she moves on the issues at hand, but it will play well to the home crowd for few months so who cares.
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  #9696  
Old 06.09.2017, 15:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So why don't they just walk away??? The only reason that Davis is up there grinning let a Cheshire Cat, is because they badly need a deal!
Either that, or they need the talks to break down, but they need to break down in such a way that its plain for everybody to see that it was the EU side that sabotaged it all and there was nothing whatsoever the Uk could have done to save it.

It seems to me that the EU side is unwittingly preparing precisely that scenario.

They need to put something positive on the table pretty quickly if they want to prevent that.
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  #9697  
Old 06.09.2017, 15:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Seems very similar to the Swiss system. Welcome to come, just send a CV first.
Not quite, the cunning Swiss have short term L Visas for unskilled farm workers. If the UK does not do the same then much agricultural produce will rot in the fields.

There were 6,500 L Visas planned for 2016; they are also used for people who work in the tourist industry like waiters, waitresses, cooks and exotic dancers!

Edit - the number of L permits were reduced as the agreements with the EU make it much easier to bring in lower cost East Europeans for these jobs.
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  #9698  
Old 06.09.2017, 15:27
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Not quite, the cunning Swiss have short term L Visas for unskilled farm workers. If the UK does not do the same then much agricultural produce will rot in the fields.

There were 6,500 L Visas planned for 2016; they are also used for people who work in the tourist industry like waiters, waitresses, cooks and exotic dancers!

Edit - the number of L permits were reduced as the agreements with the EU make it much easier to bring in lower cost East Europeans for these jobs.
From the leaked document there is provision already given for short term workers. Just like the L permit.

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  #9699  
Old 06.09.2017, 15:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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From the leaked document there is provision already given for short term workers. Just like the L permit.

Sounds pretty much like the whole Swiss system to me. One or two additions maybe.
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Old 06.09.2017, 17:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sounds pretty much like the whole Swiss system to me. One or two additions maybe.
Expect that it is targeted directly at EU citizens rather than all nations... Just shows that the EU is absolutely right to insist on ECJ supervision!
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