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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #10381  
Old 01.12.2017, 11:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Well FMF- Sinn Fein is officially pushing for NI to leave the UK according to Reuters today. That will bring peace and love just in time for Christmas for sure.
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  #10382  
Old 01.12.2017, 12:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Opinion peace in the Guardian "Project Fear has become Brexit cold reality. "

They have a good point.

The financial savings claimed have now evaporated; in fact there might even be financial losses.

It is already clear that for any new free Trade agreements the partners will expect some degree of free movement of labour.

If we want to continue to trade with the EU then UK products will have to comply with the EU product standards; like Boris's bendy bananas

So what are the benefits again?
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  #10383  
Old 01.12.2017, 12:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well FMF- Sinn Fein is officially pushing for NI to leave the UK according to Reuters today. That will bring peace and love just in time for Christmas for sure.
See! It's an ill wind...
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  #10384  
Old 01.12.2017, 13:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well FMF- Sinn Fein is officially pushing for NI to leave the UK according to Reuters today. That will bring peace and love just in time for Christmas for sure.
In other words, nothing has changed.
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  #10385  
Old 01.12.2017, 13:31
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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It's a bullshit quiz. I got "hesitant European" despite clicking anti-EU answers.

I suspect it took the "I have personally benefited from the EU" and ran with it. I'm pretty sure I'd have benefited from apartheid, but that doesn't mean I support apartheid.

Typical BBC bullshit.
Good point.

I've had heated discussions with people who told me I cannot possibly be against something that had benefitted me.

Obviously some people's allegiances can be bought, and they think it's a moral failing to think otherwise.
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  #10386  
Old 01.12.2017, 16:00
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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In other words, nothing has changed.
indeedy - apart that the failure of Brexit to find a solution for the border is handing them the golden key ...

I have relatives who live right on the border in NI - they cross several times a week, often several times a day, on business or leisure- and they are in their late 70s and have lived right through the troubles, a mixed family - open, tolerant - and now terrified of the future.
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  #10387  
Old 01.12.2017, 17:26
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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indeedy - apart that the failure of Brexit to find a solution for the border is handing them the golden key ...

I have relatives who live right on the border in NI - they cross several times a week, often several times a day, on business or leisure- and they are in their late 70s and have lived right through the troubles, a mixed family - open, tolerant - and now terrified of the future.
A united Ireland would present them with a wonderful future.
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  #10388  
Old 01.12.2017, 17:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Personally, I'd agree- but my opinion is quite rightly totally irrelevant to them.
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  #10389  
Old 01.12.2017, 18:37
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...acked-unfairly

Omnishambles
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  #10390  
Old 01.12.2017, 18:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Any excuse to leave the sinking ship
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  #10391  
Old 01.12.2017, 19:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Any excuse to leave the sinking ship
Happy to sack him, his negotiation skills seem non existent. He has not delivered what the leavers voted for.
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  #10392  
Old 01.12.2017, 22:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Hurrah- must be Advent kicking in - we actually agree on one thing

Now, not sure we will agree on the next bit, but please enlighten me - who in your view should replace him to get a good deal out of negotiations? Pray tell.

Apparently DD has been talking about resigning for 2 weeks - but was looking for an excuse that would not make him look like the total prat and waste of time he has been.
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  #10393  
Old 02.12.2017, 00:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Losers always look for an excuse to quit, DD is no different. A total failure.
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  #10394  
Old 02.12.2017, 11:20
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Hurrah- must be Advent kicking in - we actually agree on one thing

Now, not sure we will agree on the next bit, but please enlighten me - who in your view should replace him to get a good deal out of negotiations? Pray tell.

Apparently DD has been talking about resigning for 2 weeks - but was looking for an excuse that would not make him look like the total prat and waste of time he has been.
Sack him & leave with no deal. Nobody voted for the nonsense he has agreed to.
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  #10395  
Old 02.12.2017, 11:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Sack him & leave with no deal. Nobody voted for the nonsense he has agreed to.
No, they voted for a sovereign parliament to make the decisions for them, so BREXIT means whatever the DUP decides it means, unless people start canvassing their local PMs to do otherwise than hold the party lines.
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  #10396  
Old 02.12.2017, 11:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No, they voted for a sovereign parliament to make the decisions for them, so BREXIT means whatever the DUP decides it means, unless people start canvassing their local PMs to do otherwise than hold the party lines.
At the time of the BREXIT vote the DUP were irrelevant, I suspect they will be when this vote goes before parliament. Hard Brexit here we come.
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  #10397  
Old 02.12.2017, 12:30
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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A united Ireland would present them with a wonderful future.
I very much doubt the DUP who hold the whip hand would support that?
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  #10398  
Old 02.12.2017, 13:51
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I very much doubt the DUP who hold the whip hand would support that?
I don't know what we'd do without your blinding insights, Marton.
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  #10399  
Old 02.12.2017, 14:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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At the time of the BREXIT vote the DUP were irrelevant, I suspect they will be when this vote goes before parliament. Hard Brexit here we come.
Without the DUP, the U-Turn specialist could find a way... after all we have seen the emergence of terms such as 'local regulation alignment' being used to describe NI remaining in the customs union and 'refer up to the ECJ' being used rather than ECJ jurisdiction
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  #10400  
Old 02.12.2017, 14:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Spot on:

'A profound mistake is to see this media as a symptom rather than a cause. As the study I spoke about here clearly demonstrates, the output of Fox news is not designed to maximise its readership, but to maximise the impact of its propaganda on its readership. I think you could say exactly the same about the Sun and the Mail in the UK. Fox and the Sun are owned by the same man.

Even those who manage to cast off the idea that this unregulated media just reflects the attitude of its readers, generally think of this media as supportive of political parties. There is the Conservative and Labour supporting press in the UK, and similarly for the US. In my view that idea is ten or twenty years out of date, and even then it underestimates the independence of the media organisations. (The Sun famously supported Blair in 1997). More and more it is the media that calls the shorts, and the political parties follow.

Brexit would not have happened if it had remained the wish of a minority of Conservative MPs. It happened because of the right wing UK press. Brexit happened because this right wing press recognised a large section of their readership were disaffected from conventional politics, and began grooming them with stories of EU immigrants taking jobs, lowering wages and taking benefits (and sometimes much worse). These stories were not (always) false, but like all good propaganda they elevated a half-truth into a firm belief. Of course this grooming played on age old insecurities, but it magnified them into a political movement. Nationalism does the same. It did not just reflect readers existing views, but rather played on their doubts and fears and hopes and turned this into votes.

Makes sense to me, and to some on this Forum


In the UK now the story seems much more elemental: that somehow the left threatens the existence of capitalism and democracy.* In truth there is no way Corbyn could persuade the Labour party to abandon democratic capitalism*, just as there is no way Sanders or Warren could do the same in the US. All we are talking about is rolling back many of the results of neoliberalism. But it is difficult to logically convince someone the ghosts they see do not exist. In contrast to these ghosts on the left, the dynamic of plutocracy that I have described here is very real, and it requires radical change to bring an end to this dynamic.
'

mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/if-we-treat-plutocracy-as-democracy.html

Last edited by Odile; 02.12.2017 at 15:23.
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