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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #10981  
Old 29.12.2017, 20:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Lord Adonis resigns, his letter:

Lord Adonis resignation letter in full:

"Dear Prime Minister,

The hardest thing in politics is to bring about lasting change for the better, and I believe in working together across parties to achieve this. In that spirit I was glad to accept reappointment by you last year as Chair of the independent National Infrastructure Commission, when you also reaffirmed your support for HS2, which will help overcome England’s north-south divide when it opens in just eight years time. I would like to thank you for your courtesy in our personal dealings.

The Commission has done useful work in the past 27 months, thanks to highly dedicated public servants and commissioners. Sir John Armitt, my deputy chair, and Phil Graham, as chief executive, have been brilliant fellow pioneers from the outset. I am particularly proud of our work on HS3 to link the Northern cities and Crossrail 2 for London, and our plans for the Oxford-Milton Keynes-Cambridge corridor. All these will be transformational if taken forward without delay.

However, I am afraid I must now step down, because of fundamental policy differences – on infrastructure and beyond – which simply can’t be bridged.

Your decision to rupture British membership of Europe’s key economic and political institutions is the most important. The European Union Withdrawal Bill is the worst legislation of my lifetime. It arrives soon in the House of Lords and I feel duty bound to oppose it relentlessly from the Labour benches.

Brexit is a dangerous populist and nationalist spasm worthy of Donald Trump. After the narrow referendum vote for an undefined proposition to ‘leave the EU,’ it could have been attempted without rupturing our essential European trade and political relations. However, by becoming the voice of UKIP and the extreme nationalist right-wing of your party, you have taken a different course, for which you have no parliamentary or popular mandate.

You are attempting to wrench Britain out of the key economic and political institutions of modern Europe, erecting barriers between people and trade even within Ireland. If this happens, taking us back into Europe become the mission of our childrens’ generation, who will marvel at your wanton destruction.

A responsible government should be seeking to persuade the British people to stay in Europe while also tackling, with massive vigour, the social and economic problems within Britain which led to the narrow referendum result of eighteen months ago, particularly in our many desperately poor towns, cities and regions. Your policy is the opposite. The Government is hurtling towards the EU’s emergency exit with no credible plan for the future of Britain’s trade and European co-operation, while ignoring – beyond soundbites and inadequate programmes – the crisis of housing, education, the NHS and social and regional inequality which are undermining the fabric of our nation and feeding the populism which led to Brexit.

What Britain needs in 2018 is a radical reforming government in the tradition of Attlee which works tirelessly to eradicate social problems, while strengthening Britain’s international alliances. This is a cause I have long advocated and acted upon in government and I intend to pursue it with all the energy I can muster.

Britain needs to be deeply engaged, responsible and consistent in its European policy. When we have failed to be so in the past, the security and prosperity of our Continent have been in jeopardy – inevitably so, given our power and our embodiment of the values of parliamentary democracy. For Her Majesty’s Government, there is no such thing as ‘splendid isolation’: and when Lord Salisbury, among your most short-sightedly cynical predecessors, pronounced this as British policy in the imperial late-Victorian era, it was followed within barely a decade by the First World War and what was, in effect, a 30-year European war between the forces of democracy on the one hand, and Communism and extreme nationalism on the other. The stakes may not appear so high as this moment, but no-one observing Putin’s Russia, and the rise authoritarian nationalism in Poland and Hungary, can doubt the resonances with the past or the dangers ahead. As Edmund Burke so wisely wrote, ‘people will not not look forwards to posterity who do not look backwards to their ancestors.’

However, I would anyway have been forced to resign from the Commission at this point because of the Transport Secretary’s extraordinary decision to bail-out Stagecoach and Virgin on the East Coast rail franchise. This bailout will cost the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds, possibly billions as other loss-making rail companies demand equal treatment, endangering the entire national infrastructure investment programme.

It is increasingly clear that the bailout is a nakedly political manoeuvre by Chris Grayling in defiance of his public duty. It would be an act of cavalier irresponsibility even were public resources not so constrained, and is the more so in the context of Brexit. Mr Grayling’s policy appears to be motivated above all by a refusal, for purely political reasons, to follow my precedent of 2009 in the case of National Express and the same East Coast franchise. I set up a public company to take over the franchise once the private operator defaulted on its obligations to the state because it had over-bid for the contract, and the same should have been done in this case. The circumstances are very similar.

The decision to bail out Stagecoach/Virgin will inevitably come under close scrutiny by the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, and I need to be free to set out serious public interest concerns. I hope the PAC calls Sir Richard Branson and Sir Brian Souter to give evidence soon, given the gravity of the financial losses to the taxpayer. I stand ready to give evidence to the PAC and other parliamentary committees at their convenience, and to share with them substantial relevant evidence.

As you know, I raised these issues directly with the Chancellor and Transport Secretary immediately after the bailout became apparent from the small print of an odd policy statement on 29 November majoring on reversing of Beeching rail closures of the 1960s. I received no response from either Minister beyond inappropriate requests to desist.

You occupy one of the most powerful offices in the history of the world, the heir of Churchill, Attlee and Gladstone. Whatever our differences, I wish you well in guiding our national destiny at this critical time."
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  #10982  
Old 29.12.2017, 20:15
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I don't think that people in the Outer Hebrides share much language or culture with people in Brixton, or Oldham, or Swansea.

Britain is a diverse place, some people haven't really got used to that yet.
Perhaps not, but there are as many people who enjoy Eastenders, binge drinking and eating curry in Glasgow as there are in Bristol, or Swindon or Wolverhampton or Wrexham.
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  #10983  
Old 29.12.2017, 20:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Agree on curry, but not binge drinking or Eastenders. Corrie however...
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  #10984  
Old 29.12.2017, 20:50
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Lord Adonis resigns, his letter:

Lord Adonis resignation letter in full
Who voted for him?
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  #10985  
Old 30.12.2017, 00:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Perhaps not, but there are as many people who enjoy Eastenders, binge drinking and eating curry in Glasgow as there are in Bristol, or Swindon or Wolverhampton or Wrexham.
Or Mönchengladbach, or Akrotiri. Etc.
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  #10986  
Old 30.12.2017, 00:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Always thought they were part of Iceland
They wish. They'd have a decent football team to support them!
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  #10987  
Old 30.12.2017, 00:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Who voted for him?
There is no process for voting in Cabinet members
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  #10988  
Old 30.12.2017, 01:19
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Who voted for him?
Well obviously you did, go back and read your posts it is only a couple of weeks ago since you were singing the man’s praises for heavens sake!
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  #10989  
Old 30.12.2017, 13:10
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well obviously you did, go back and read your posts it is only a couple of weeks ago since you were singing the man’s praises for heavens sake!
You’ll have to jog my memory.
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  #10990  
Old 30.12.2017, 13:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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David Davis sidelined as civil servant Oliver Robbins takes over Brexit negotiations



So the Brexiteers now have an unelected bureaucrat leading the negotiations...... oh dear, oh dear

Source
More fake news by the looks of it. Oh dear.

Brexit department denies David Davis has been sidelined in talks
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  #10991  
Old 30.12.2017, 14:38
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More fake news by the looks of it. Oh dear.

Brexit department denies David Davis has been sidelined in talks
Ya, agreed the denial definitely looks like fake news for sure.
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  #10992  
Old 30.12.2017, 15:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You can burn your British passport anytime you like and it won't make any difference to you.

You know what you can do with your supercilious attitude, Heidi.
Only know one Heidi, and she is very British and lives in the UK, and very lovely and kind.

You couldn't be more wrong ... we have always planned on returning to the UK once we can't easily travel, when we are old (not quite there yet)- our daughters and grandchildren are there, and we would never burden them with the worry of worrying that we are abroad and too far for them to visit often. That is their request, and we will honour it - they saw how hard it was for me to look after my elderly parents whislt working full time, especially in senior management, from the UK. Had to give up seniority, and eventually give up my job and change my life altogether, to doso. I would never expect them to do the same. Soon 67 and 72 - so that time will come. And if one of us was widowed, the other would return to UK.

So what happens to the UK is massively important to us- for them, and for us too, in a very direct way. The reason we kept property in the UK. We actually stand to gain a lot if the £ goes down even further, in the long term. Ta.

Will always keep a small place here too- for EXIT purposes- and to visit the area and friends too. I've always loved England - and have never ever turned against it and said 'Blighty gone to dogs and I just can't understand people there' ...Our move here was a positive one, not an escape - as some expats have done.

Last edited by Odile; 30.12.2017 at 16:38.
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  #10993  
Old 30.12.2017, 16:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So what happens to the UK is massively important to us- for them, and for us too, in a very direct way. The reason we kept property in the UK. We actually stand to gain a lot if the £ goes down even further, in the long term. Ta.

Will always keep a small place here too- for EXIT purposes- and to visit the area and friends too. I've always loved England - and have never ever turned against it and said 'Blighty gone to dogs and I just can't understand people there' ...Our move here was a positive one, not an escape - as some expats have done.
I doubt the £ will soften, likely to strengthen substantially in a 5-10 year timescale.

As a UK resident using EXIT will be difficult as if you are helped by anyone to get to CH whom is UK resident they will be liable to Criminal charges as assisted suicide is illegal in the UK.
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  #10994  
Old 30.12.2017, 19:06
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Will always keep a small place here too
... which is precisely my point. You don't have any real emotional investment in the United Kingdom. It's just one of your countries, along with Switzerland, South Africa, Malaysia and however many other countries to which you boast about having links.

I'm just English, like my dad and his dad and his dad before him. I have no other nationality. If the United Kingdom goes tits up, I'm fecked. If British citizens are expelled from the EU and Switzerland, I'm fecked. The current state and future of the United Kingdom matter to me on a deep level that you can never even begin to understand.

Let's put it this way: it's possible that I may eventually acquire Swiss citizenship. It would be great: I love Switzerland, and would dearly love to spend the rest of my life here. But I'll never be truly Swiss like you, or my neighbours or most of the people in my village are. I'll never have bought a loaf of bread from a mobile Migros shop. I'll never have got a thrill at seeing someone dressed as Globi at a children's party. I'll never have smoked a fag at the Fridolinsfeuer or sung for Samichlaus or played Jass with my comrades in the army. I'll be able to vote, but I'll never be able to tap the heart of Switzerland, because I simply won't be Swiss. I'll always be a Brit who got a Swiss passport - and as such, I'll always have a back door out of central Europe if things get too hot. That option wouldn't be available for Urs and Vreneli next door.

So, no. What happens to the United Kingdom isn't as important to you as it is to me, because I don't have the options and escape routes that you do.

I wouldn't have said any of this, to be honest, but you keep banging on and on about British expats not having to face the consequences of their voting decisions, and suggesting that somehow we're not as invested in our home countries as you - and you're simply wrong. Not just wrong, but wrong and offensive.

You're not a Brit. You never will be. Just as I will never be Swiss.

So stop trying to crack on that you care more about our country than we do.
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  #10995  
Old 30.12.2017, 19:28
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Nasty that ...sad too.

Sometimes it is better not to reply-so I won't. But I am a Brit and always will be, probably more than I am Swiss. The fact you can't or won't be both- is not my problem.
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  #10996  
Old 30.12.2017, 19:32
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Nasty that ...sad too.
You've been dishing it out in post after post for the last two years now.

It's about time you got some of it back.

It's also clear that you didn't understand a word of my post.

Like you said: that's your problem, not mine.
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  #10997  
Old 30.12.2017, 20:21
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... which is precisely my point. You don't have any real emotional investment in the United Kingdom. It's just one of your countries, along with Switzerland, South Africa, Malaysia and however many other countries to which you boast about having links.

I'm just English, like my dad and his dad and his dad before him. I have no other nationality. If the United Kingdom goes tits up, I'm fecked. If British citizens are expelled from the EU and Switzerland, I'm fecked. The current state and future of the United Kingdom matter to me on a deep level that you can never even begin to understand.

Let's put it this way: it's possible that I may eventually acquire Swiss citizenship. It would be great: I love Switzerland, and would dearly love to spend the rest of my life here. But I'll never be truly Swiss like you, or my neighbours or most of the people in my village are. I'll never have bought a loaf of bread from a mobile Migros shop. I'll never have got a thrill at seeing someone dressed as Globi at a children's party. I'll never have smoked a fag at the Fridolinsfeuer or sung for Samichlaus or played Jass with my comrades in the army. I'll be able to vote, but I'll never be able to tap the heart of Switzerland, because I simply won't be Swiss. I'll always be a Brit who got a Swiss passport - and as such, I'll always have a back door out of central Europe if things get too hot. That option wouldn't be available for Urs and Vreneli next door.

So, no. What happens to the United Kingdom isn't as important to you as it is to me, because I don't have the options and escape routes that you do.

I wouldn't have said any of this, to be honest, but you keep banging on and on about British expats not having to face the consequences of their voting decisions, and suggesting that somehow we're not as invested in our home countries as you - and you're simply wrong. Not just wrong, but wrong and offensive.

You're not a Brit. You never will be. Just as I will never be Swiss.

So stop trying to crack on that you care more about our country than we do.
You've been here as long as me DB, oder? You can surely get a Swiss passport as of January? The other things are just personal perspective in my opinion.

Are people from <insert country x> who make a life in the UK less British than you or I? I don't think so. Certainly, their kids are as British as you or me. I prefer living here to in Britain (as do you) - surely that makes us less British than people who actually want to live there? I would certainly always view myself as a European having lived most of my adult life on the continent. How others view me is their issue I guess.
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Old 30.12.2017, 20:55
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You've been here as long as me DB, oder? You can surely get a Swiss passport as of January? The other things are just personal perspective in my opinion.

Are people from <insert country x> who make a life in the UK less British than you or I? I don't think so. Certainly, their kids are as British as you or me. I prefer living here to in Britain (as do you) - surely that makes us less British than people who actually want to live there? I would certainly always view myself as a European having lived most of my adult life on the continent. How others view me is their issue I guess.
First of all, my rant was specifically directed at Odile who has spent most of the last two years asserting that she has more investment in Britain than many of us who were born and brought up there, and have longstanding links to the country. I have been finding her snide comments deeply offensive, and this evening I finally snapped. Who the bloody hell does this Swiss woman think she is?

Regarding the principle in general, though, it depends. Does [person from country x] maintain a little bijou bolt-hole in another country? Does [person from country x] continually boast about his heritage and contacts in [country x] and [everywhere else he can think of]? Most importantly: does [person x] hold another passport, affording him the ability to scarper when the going gets tough? In general, I'd say that if these conditions are met, then [person from country x] is less British than those of us who were born and brought up there and have longstanding links to the country.

My mate Y, on the other hand, arrived in England with a British passport when he was seven years old, was educated in England, worked his entire life in England, maintains no significant links with any other country, and certainly doesn't hold property overseas or possess a foreign passport. I'd say he is invested in the status and future of Britain, for sure. Where else is he going to go? Funnily enough, he always denies being British, asserting that he's African at every opportunity, but there you go: these things are profoundly personal.

You see, my argument isn't really one of pure nativism. I acknowledge that there are degrees of 'belonging'. But a very important factor - in the context of my quarrel with Odile - is that the person with no other nationality, the person without a little place to which they can retire whenever they fancy it - certainly does have more right to claim investment in the status and future of a country than some random globetrotter with family contacts all around the world.

Regarding my Swissness, should I ever be lucky enough to get a Swiss passport: no, I won't ever be Swiss according to my principles, simply because I am unwilling to give up my British nationality. Should any Eidgenossen-type tell me that I'm not really Swiss, I'll nod my head and agree with him - then go and indulge my legal right to vote and whatever else, just like naturalised British citizens can do. Is there anything wrong with that? Most people would just call it common sense.
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Old 30.12.2017, 21:04
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Regarding my Swissness, should I ever be lucky enough to get a Swiss passport - no, I won't ever be Swiss according to my principles, simply because I am unwilling to give up my British nationality. Should any Eidgenossen-type tell me that I'm not really Swiss, I'll nod my head and agree with him - then go and indulge my legal right to vote and whatever else, just like naturalised British citizens can do. Is there anything wrong with that? Most people would just call it common sense.
No requirement to give up your British Nationality, this is CH not DE.
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Old 30.12.2017, 21:06
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No requirement to give up your British Nationality, this is CH not DE.
Exactly! I'll always be "DB, that British bloke who has a red passport", never "DB, the Swiss bloke next door".

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