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  #61  
Old 04.05.2018, 09:57
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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I'm wondering what's in it for them still trying to sign up subscribers for maybe another 8 months.
Everything's been set up already so the incremental costs are probably close to zero.
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  #62  
Old 04.05.2018, 14:03
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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Everything's been set up already so the incremental costs are probably close to zero.
back of a fag packet calculation.

If they were to convince me to go out today and buy a TV and sign up to their service, that would be 7 months to pay until they shut down the shop. That is 7/12 of 450CHf = 262 CHF

According to this page, Billag themselves make 4 percent of that: https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/de/...stationen.html

4 percvent of 262 CHF is 10 CHF.

They've already sent me two letters this year, so lets dedict 2 CHf for postage.

The probability that people even reply to this type of stuff - if you want to sell me a TV, send me a TV brochure for f**'s sake, or something about the high quality of TV, or some fake news study that watching TV is better for your gealth than being outdoors. None og that. Where's the sales pitch?

The sales proposition they are presentzing me with is pi** poor. The law says, they say. Duh. Let's put the probability that some punter thinks that's a cool sales argument at 1 percent.

So even if all else is set up, Billag is investing 2 CHf to recover 8 Rappen.,

With that sort of economic thinking, I'd be selling my Swisscom shares if indeed I still had any.
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  #63  
Old 04.05.2018, 14:36
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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The sales proposition they are presentzing me with is pi** poor. The law says, they say. Duh. Let's put the probability that some punter thinks that's a cool sales argument at 1 percent.
"The law says". Works with tax and fines as well
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  #64  
Old 04.05.2018, 14:50
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

I'm going to answer this in 2 separate replies.

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back of a fag packet calculation.

If they were to convince me to go out today and buy a TV and sign up to their service, that would be 7 months to pay until they shut down the shop. That is 7/12 of 450CHf = 262 CHF

According to this page, Billag themselves make 4 percent of that: https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/de/...stationen.html

4 percvent of 262 CHF is 10 CHF.
I make it 10.48.

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They've already sent me two letters this year, so lets dedict 2 CHf for postage.

<snip>

So even if all else is set up, Billag is investing 2 CHf to recover 8 Rappen.
Dodgy maths. I make it CHF 8.48.

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With that sort of economic thinking, I'd be selling my Swisscom shares if indeed I still had any.
Not exactly. They will be getting CHF X from Serafe for the database extract of all existing customers and that is going to be a significant amount.

Some sort of data transfer fee will have been pretty much a done deal right from the beginning. I would have thought that the data ultimately belongs to the Federal Government, but maintaining it was subcontracted out to Billag and you can bet your bottom dollar that they will have written into the original contract a cost for transferring the data back to admin.ch or transferring it to a government nominate successor, in this case Serafe.

Boosting the number of customers at this late date will be profitable, no doubt about it.

Your name and address will no doubt get transferred as well, as a "sales prospect". That could be a totally separate deal between Billag and Serafe and could be very valuable in its own right.

Over to my next reply for the rest.
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Old 04.05.2018, 15:00
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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"The law says". Works with tax and fines as well
Only the Strassenverkehrsamt doesn't tell people they should have a car, or disbelieve them if they say they don't.
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  #66  
Old 04.05.2018, 15:05
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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Not exactly. They will be getting CHF X from Serafe for the database extract of all existing customers and that is going to be a significant amount.
Interesting. This is the first i've heard of this. any idea what they are paying per address?

As the law is changing, in other words, the conditions that make you liable to pay are chnaging, the old subscriber database will be pretty innaccurate from day one. So I can't see Serafe shelling out very much for it.
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  #67  
Old 04.05.2018, 15:32
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

(I've spell checked the following quote)

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They've already sent me two letters this year, so lets deduct 2 CHf for postage.

The probability that people even reply to this type of stuff - if you want to sell me a TV, send me a TV brochure for f**'s sake, or something about the high quality of TV, or some fake news study that watching TV is better for your health than being outdoors. None of that. Where's the sales pitch?

The sales proposition they are presenting me with is pi** poor. The law says, they say. Duh. Let's put the probability that some punter thinks that's a cool sales argument at 1 percent.
Agreed that Billag's fear and terror approach is pi** poor. It probably stems from attitudes typical with a state monopoly that Swisscom was back when Billag was set up. "Must pay taxes and fines" etc...

I've no idea if this is going to happen, but if I had any say in the matter I'd have Serafe running positive campaigns about the qualify of TV and Radio funded by the public purse. I might look at what I recall from the BBC's efforts over the years, but I'd really be looking at the positive points I've found about Swiss TV and Radio myself.

TV:
  • With a stereo TV, being able to switch languages between the original and local language. I've enjoyed many of the James Bond and Spaghetti Western classics in my native English and the German, French and Italian versions, all on Swiss TV.
  • As a both a french and German speaker, with one-time aspirations of learning Italian, I really like channel hopping among the 3 main Swiss languages, and occasionally seeing how much of Romansch I can understand (I did Latin at skool).
  • Films uncluttered by adverts
  • Full length films rather than chopped down to 1 hour 30 to fit in with other programs as in the UK.

So, Serafe could add other points and actually convert quite a few people, I reckon. A list of constant refusers to join like yourself could actually be very valuable to anyone running a positive campaign about Swiss TV's qualities.

But back to Billag's current quest for more numbers...

What's all this crap about registering individual receivers I see on the Billag website? Apart from the Big Brother creepiness of it, I see it as an attempt to gain marketable data about you. By "marketable" I mean "data they can sell to third parties". There is value in that too, often worth quite a lot to those who combine it with other data sources to profile you.
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Old 04.05.2018, 16:09
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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They've already sent me two letters this year, so lets dedict 2 CHf for postage.
Mass mailings cost way less than the standard postage, especially if they're pre-stamped and ordered by postal code by the sender. Presumably additional price reductions are achievable.

What I don't get is why you folk keep being pestered. I haven't paid for tv for about 15 years. Got (successfully) ringed once and never heard of them again (other than the radio bill).
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  #69  
Old 04.05.2018, 16:46
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

Serafe site is up and they are looking a leader for debt collection

https://www.serafe.ch/en/
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Old 04.05.2018, 16:52
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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TV:
  • With a stereo TV, being able to switch languages between the original and local language. I've enjoyed many of the James Bond and Spaghetti Western classics in my native English and the German, French and Italian versions, all on Swiss TV.
  • As a both a french and German speaker, with one-time aspirations of learning Italian, I really like channel hopping among the 3 main Swiss languages, and occasionally seeing how much of Romansch I can understand (I did Latin at skool).
  • Films uncluttered by adverts
  • Full length films rather than chopped down to 1 hour 30 to fit in with other programs as in the UK.
This is so 1980s. Back then a stereo TV was cool and being able to watch in one additional language was the non plus ultra of technology. Today I can go onto the internet and download a spaghetti western in Bengali or X'hosa if the fancy takes me. And yeah, I can even pick up a word here or there. So I guess that's the modern day equivalent of trying to understand Rumantsch using school Latin.

Billag could have built a positive rapport to its customers 20 years ago but decided to play the scare game instead. Now that boat has left and if they wnat to sell something now they're going to have to up their game even more. The best salesman can't sell something if the goods aren't there. So the onus is going to have to shift to SRG to up their game massively. And that letter they send me is going to gave to sell it to me. Otherwise it's the bin. Sorry.

But then I guess threatening people is easier.

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A list of constant refusers to join like yourself could actually be very valuable to anyone running a positive campaign about Swiss TV's qualities.
That's going to be a tough one to sell.

- I don't have a TV
- I don't have time for TV
- I don't want to buy a TV, also because I don't like spending money on stuff loike that
- Even when I did have a TV, I never liked it.
- The Billag ticked me in a bad way off so it turned into a bit of a personal vendetta.

Therefore, their campaign will have to:

- convince me to back off other hobbies that i enjoy to have time for TV. Stuff like travelling, reading, learning languages. They're going to have to convince me all hat is bad.
- to convince me to actually buy a TV
- to pay for all this

Sounds like a very difficult sell for them.
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Old 04.05.2018, 16:56
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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What's all this crap about registering individual receivers I see on the Billag website? Apart from the Big Brother creepiness of it, I see it as an attempt to gain marketable data about you. By "marketable" I mean "data they can sell to third parties". There is value in that too, often worth quite a lot to those who combine it with other data sources to profile you.
Probably that is already happening. What we're hearing about Zuckerberg and Cambridge Analytics is probably only the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 10.05.2018, 21:57
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

Hello again, friends. An invitation from Billag to register online brought me back here.

Based on some reading, the advice appears on balance to discourage this compliance, at least if you're not listening to the radio nor watching television.

I don't know how they "pre-registered" me, but there's already a customer number associated with my name and address. Been at same address for about 3 years, and it's the first notice I've received.

I also didn't know they were private actors and that they were being replaced. Presumably they've become more energetic about tracking people down, but is this any cause for concern? If it was my mobile carrier who provided them with my info, then there's "proof" of radio liability (technically or theoretically) for as long as I've been here. Advice? Affirmations?

Thanks gais.
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  #73  
Old 11.05.2018, 09:30
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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Hello again, friends. An invitation from Billag to register online brought me back here.

Based on some reading, the advice appears on balance to discourage this compliance, at least if you're not listening to the radio nor watching television.

I don't know how they "pre-registered" me, but there's already a customer number associated with my name and address. Been at same address for about 3 years, and it's the first notice I've received.

I also didn't know they were private actors and that they were being replaced. Presumably they've become more energetic about tracking people down, but is this any cause for concern? If it was my mobile carrier who provided them with my info, then there's "proof" of radio liability (technically or theoretically) for as long as I've been here. Advice? Affirmations?

Thanks gais.
Billag's strategy in signing up new customers involves a lot of bluff.

There is no legal necessity to reply to their letter, even if the wording implies otherwise. There is an article buried deep somewhee on the web, I think from Beobachter or somebody lilke that, that confirms this.

In fact on the contrary, a lawyer friend of mine says that by replying, even in the negative, you are entering into some sort of agreement with them. The safest thing you can do is to ignore them totally.

You "customer number" is equally just that. Billag probably does not have a file on you, or if they do there's probably not very much in it. But just they just assign random numbers to create the impression that they're on your heels and have a case against you. It's all part of the fear and scare tactic. They have at least four different numbers on me, one of them even with my name mis-spelled, one with the name of my cat (I regularly use her name when entering prize draws and things, and I even have a foreign credit card in her name). Just shows how good they are (not) at consolidating and processing information.

Just ignore the letter. You'll be OK.

As discussed earlier, it seems they can make monetize their subscriber list, which is why they're throwing all they can at it before they shut down.
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  #74  
Old 11.05.2018, 10:49
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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Billag's strategy in signing up new customers involves a lot of bluff.

There is no legal necessity to reply to their letter, even if the wording implies otherwise. There is an article buried deep somewhee on the web, I think from Beobachter or somebody lilke that, that confirms this.

In fact on the contrary, a lawyer friend of mine says that by replying, even in the negative, you are entering into some sort of agreement with them. The safest thing you can do is to ignore them totally.

You "customer number" is equally just that. Billag probably does not have a file on you, or if they do there's probably not very much in it. But just they just assign random numbers to create the impression that they're on your heels and have a case against you. It's all part of the fear and scare tactic. They have at least four different numbers on me, one of them even with my name mis-spelled, one with the name of my cat (I regularly use her name when entering prize draws and things, and I even have a foreign credit card in her name). Just shows how good they are (not) at consolidating and processing information.

Just ignore the letter. You'll be OK.

As discussed earlier, it seems they can make monetize their subscriber list, which is why they're throwing all they can at it before they shut down.
Thanks for the response. I found something like what you were referring to here: https://www.beobachter.ch/konsum/mul...ular-ausfullen

As I understand things now, there's no obligation to reply to the letter, but there always was an obligation to pay these taxes, at least for radio, as any smartphone seems to count as one. Always had this Meldepflicht.

So the chf 5000 fine threat pertains to the original obligation. One wouldn't ordinarily assume that one needs a radio license to own a mobile phone, but now that I do know, I seem clearly obligated to register and pay, and not doing so can technically result in this 5000 chf fine. By responding now I'm acknowledging this, though probably feigned ignorance of this obligation wouldn't be helpful anyway.

I guess what I would like to do is start paying for the ridiculous radio license without subjecting myself to having to pay for the last 7 years, and also not exposing myself to possibly paying the TV license fee. I've never owned a TV here and don't use Zattoo or whatever other services would count, but they could still hassle me about it, like that woman in the beobachter article.

I also don't want to fill out any forms dishonestly. If phones are radios then how do i claim I only just got one?
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Old 11.05.2018, 11:08
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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Thanks for the response. I found something like what you were referring to here: https://www.beobachter.ch/konsum/mul...ular-ausfullen

As I understand things now, there's no obligation to reply to the letter, but there always was an obligation to pay these taxes, at least for radio, as any smartphone seems to count as one. Always had this Meldepflicht.

So the chf 5000 fine threat pertains to the original obligation. One wouldn't ordinarily assume that one needs a radio license to own a mobile phone, but now that I do know, I seem clearly obligated to register and pay, and not doing so can technically result in this 5000 chf fine. By responding now I'm acknowledging this, though probably feigned ignorance of this obligation wouldn't be helpful anyway.

I guess what I would like to do is start paying for the ridiculous radio license without subjecting myself to having to pay for the last 7 years, and also not exposing myself to possibly paying the TV license fee. I've never owned a TV here and don't use Zattoo or whatever other services would count, but they could still hassle me about it, like that woman in the beobachter article.

I also don't want to fill out any forms dishonestly. If phones are radios then how do i claim I only just got one?
They will hassle you, no matter what, unless you sign up for their full package. But there are ways of dealing with the hassling. I for one, don't believe in paying people just to not be hassled.

Billag is on death's door. Come end of this year and they will be no more. A new organisation, Serafe, will take over. We don't yet know what their strategy will be and how they will go about convincing people to sign up. But let's hope for the best and hope they will have a more positive approach than Billag's present cold-war era scare and fear tactic.

As for the fine and the legal obligation, the wording of the law is in my understanding rather convoluted and open to interpretation. Billag has chosen an interpretation that is in their favour and are pretending their interpretation is final and get evasive and shifty when you try and discuss this with them.

Whether you want to give in to the bullying and bluffing is your decison at the end of the day.
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Old 11.05.2018, 13:57
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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As for the fine and the legal obligation, the wording of the law is in my understanding rather convoluted and open to interpretation. Billag has chosen an interpretation that is in their favour and are pretending their interpretation is final and get evasive and shifty when you try and discuss this with them.

Whether you want to give in to the bullying and bluffing is your decison at the end of the day.
True enough, it looks like you're only liable if you've previously applied for exemption and then proceeded to use devices for radio and tv., not for failing to register in the first place. Couldn't find any other references to fines.

1. Alle Mitglieder eines Privathaushalts, in welchem kein zum Empfang von Radio oder Fernsehprogrammen geeignetes Gerät bereitsteht oder betrieben wird, werdenauf Gesuch hin für eine Abgabeperiode von der Abgabe befreit.

and then.

5. Mit Busse bis zu 5000 Franken wird bestraft, wer einem Haushalt angehört, der nach Absatz 1 von der Abgabe befreit ist und in dem ein zum Empfang geeignetes Gerät bereitsteht oder betrieben wird, ohne dies der Erhebungsstelle nach Absatz 4 vorgängig gemeldet zu haben.

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/official.../2016/2131.pdf

So it's not even open to interpretation. They're just lying... I'm going to take your advice. Thanks again.
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Old 18.05.2018, 14:57
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

Anyone know if you have to pay billag for owning a TV but only using it for other devices (not plugged into antenna)?

I moved apartment, TV too far away from connection, so I don't use it.

Thanks!
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Old 18.05.2018, 15:16
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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Anyone know if you have to pay billag for owning a TV but only using it for other devices (not plugged into antenna)?

I moved apartment, TV too far away from connection, so I don't use it.

Thanks!
Technically, I think you still have to pay.

Exceptions apply if the TV is quite obviously not for use. For example, it's in your basement and under two inches of dust, or you've removed or destroyed the tuner card (hint hint) or it is of a system not compatible with what comes out of your socket.

PS. Seeing most Billag men don't know f*** about electronoics, anything that's soldered unprofessionally and looks slightly scary should pass the bar for a disabled tuner card.
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Old 18.05.2018, 15:39
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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Technically, I think you still have to pay.

Exceptions apply if the TV is quite obviously not for use. For example, it's in your basement and under two inches of dust, or you've removed or destroyed the tuner card (hint hint) or it is of a system not compatible with what comes out of your socket.

PS. Seeing most Billag men don't know f*** about electronoics, anything that's soldered unprofessionally and looks slightly scary should pass the bar for a disabled tuner card.
That's what I thought... maybe I'll just destroy my TV tuner card to save some cash from the rest of 2018, before the next overlords kick in
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Old 18.05.2018, 15:50
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Re: Bye bye Billag [Welcome our new overlord Serafe]

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That's what I thought... maybe I'll just destroy my TV tuner card to save some cash from the rest of 2018, before the next overlords kick in
Not end of 2018, end of 2023.

Haushalte ohne Radio- oder Fernsehempfangsgeräte zahlen während einer Übergangsfrist von fünf Jahren nichts.


Source:
https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/de/...-des-rtvg.html
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