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Old 21.07.2017, 12:07
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

Eeesh...I can see my initial messages may not have been read or were not clear enough.

The issue is not about friendly neighbours children playing on our garden. I mentioned that we actually enjoy living in a coproperty - we have fantastic relationships with a great many of the people who live here and we are very actively involved in activities organized within the coproperty and our commune.

The issue is there is a concern on the part of one coproprietaire that between one limit of our private parcel and the cordon-boisé there should be a path. We find no record of such a path on plans we have of the coproperty dating back to the mid-70's (which clearly show vegetation of the cordon-boisé coming up to and touching the limit of our parcel privé). At the moment our property line virtually touches the cordon-boisé and it would not physically be possible for a person to use a pathway between our property line and the cordon-boisé without stepping on to our private parcel, which along that edge of our property is a planted garden with all plantings corresponding to the legal distances required of various types of vegetation from one's property limit.

The traversals of our property that I mentioned have been of the single coproprietaire and another coproprietaire who shares her view that there should be a path. While we have not witnessed them crossing we have been informed by neighbours that both have traversed our property and loitered around within it on several occasions (well inside and away from where they imagine a path to be) and have been observing our plantings etc. all from well within our private parcel. We assume their trespassing has everything to do with attempting to determine exactly where our property line passes in relation to the cordon-boisé.

As I mentioned in my original post, one of them has engaged a lawyer through which a geometre is being contracted to come in and identify the property line in relation to the cordon-boisé.

The advice I seem to be getting is that I should put up a sign or a fence, neither of which my wife or myself would like to do. It does not seem to me based on the replies here that a videosurveillance camera would be helpful - by the way a number of people here asked if I had read the law concerning use of videosurveillance in Switzerland and the answer is yes I have studied this carefully. In case it is helpful for others who read this in the future the key point to remember is your video must only capture your own private property. I did mention this on my original posting as well.

Best,

DM
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:12
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

Your solution is simple. Employ a lawyer.

Your expectations of free advice on the internet seem a little high. You really do get what you pay for.
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:13
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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Fatmanfilms are you saying that the mere act of walking on to someone else's private property is not an offense in and of itself? One needs to be asked to leave and refuse to comply (or commit some other offense) before one can be charged with unlawful entry? If that is the case I see no point whatsoever in installing a videosurveillance camera. Also Fatmanfilms, please let me know if you happen to be a lawyer
Correct. If there is no fence then anyone can walk potentially walk on your property. This is a general principle and is also true in other non-aristocratic societies where the right of the common man is held high. It is called Freedom to roam.
This is also explicitly given for pastures and woods in Art. 699 Swiss Civil Code
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a699
Art. 700 and Art. 701 of the Civilcode give some additional grounds when entry is permitted even when there is a fence or similar boundary.

Here the text of the already mentioned Art. 186 Swiss Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a186
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Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a building, an apartment, a self-contained room within a building, an enclosed area, courtyard or garden forming a direct part of a building, or a clearly demarcated workplace or, despite requests from the lawful occupants to leave, remains in such a location, is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
A garden or courtyard must be enclosed, means a gate, wall, fence, rope etc. (in einen unmittelbar zu einem Hause gehörenden umfriedeten Platz, Hof oder Garten). Only a workplace can be open and non enclosed. See also federal court ruling BGE 104 IV 256 http://relevancy.bger.ch/php/clir/ht...=show_document

The only option you have to give each and every person stepping onto your property personally a Hausverbot for indefinite time. (request them to leave and not return).

I do not know if the common "Posted" signs which are used in the US would help. But does are in my opinion the bigger eye sore then for example a fence or dry stone wall of 50 cm height. The later is also a nice habitat for lizards and such.
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:21
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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The traversals of our property that I mentioned have been of the single coproprietaire and another coproprietaire who shares her view that there should be a path. While we have not witnessed them crossing we have been informed by neighbours that both have traversed our property and loitered around within it on several occasions (well inside and away from where they imagine a path to be) and have been observing our plantings etc. all from well within our private parcel. We assume their trespassing has everything to do with attempting to determine exactly where our property line passes in relation to the cordon-boisé.

As I mentioned in my original post, one of them has engaged a lawyer through which a geometre is being contracted to come in and identify the property line in relation to the cordon-boisé.

The advice I seem to be getting is that I should put up a sign or a fence, neither of which my wife or myself would like to do.
If you know which persons enter the property you can, as said in the above post give them the Hausverbot for indifenite time (l'interdiction d'entrer au pour une durée indéterminée.)

As said the are certain circumstances where you must accept other people on your property. I assume, without any reference, that a surveyor doing his job has to be tolerated.
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:23
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

Thank you aSwissInTheUS that is a very helpful and informative reply and I also appreciated your posts on another thread I had looked at here with respect to trespassing issues.

Based on what you say there really would not appear to be any rationale for investing in a videosurveillance capability.

Our hope is that with a geometre coming and actually identifying where the property line is in relation to the cordon-boisé that the issue will be resolved once and for all. That said based on what you say it seems that unless we do resort to unsightly signs or some kind of enclosure the coproprietaire concerned could proceed to routinely come onto and even remain on our private property with no fear of any legal remedy. If that were to arise the Hausverbot you mention may be our only recourse.

Thanks again, very helpful.

DM
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:24
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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If you know which persons enter the property you can, as said in the above post give them the Hausverbot for indifenite time (l'interdiction d'entrer au pour une durée indéterminée.)

As said the are certain circumstances where you must accept other people on your property. I assume, without any reference, that a surveyor doing his job has to be tolerated.
Are there any shared air raid shelters? They may need to cross this land in an emergency so it would be wise to learn the quickest route
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:30
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

Whatever you decide on, I think your first action should be a registered letter to the two coproprietaries, their lawyer, and the geometer, informing them that you resent any of them accessing your property at all and instructing them to stay off, effective immediately and for an unlimited duration.

This may not be of much use as Long as you have no fence but it won't hurt either, and if you decide to put one up you've eliminated all doubts already. Even a "Weidezaun" should do (a few sticks connected with wire, chain or string.

I doubt though a Hausverbot is possible at this point due to lack of fence or wall.

As for the videocamera, no problem at all as Long as you film private land only and have the Ok of all landowners thereof. Meaning if it's your land only you can do as you please.
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:30
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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If you know which persons enter the property you can, as said in the above post give them the Hausverbot for indifenite time (l'interdiction d'entrer au pour une durée indéterminée.)

As said the are certain circumstances where you must accept other people on your property. I assume, without any reference, that a surveyor doing his job has to be tolerated.
aSwissInTheUS, one quick query if I may. We do indeed know the identities of the people who have come on to our property, however this comes from others who have seen this and not anything more tangible (such as videosurveillance footage).

In the absence of any enclosure around our private parcel (apart from the landscaping I mentioned which does provide a physical barrier with only two 1 meter wide openings that are well within our lateral borders), and with only the stated accounts of witnesses, would we have sufficient cause to request an Hausverbot for an indefinite time for both people concerned?

Also fatmanfilms, no there are no shared air raid shelters. Please understand the trespassing is far from innocent or justified.
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:30
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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If you know which persons enter the property you can, as said in the above post give them the Hausverbot for indifenite time (l'interdiction d'entrer au pour une durée indéterminée.)

As said the are certain circumstances where you must accept other people on your property. I assume, without any reference, that a surveyor doing his job has to be tolerated.
Though maybe such jobs should be arranged in advance with the landowner at a convenient time for him...
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:38
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

TLDR...

But two questions.

1. Have you spoken to those who believe there should be a path? May be a simple misunderstanding...

2. Why not plant some pretty flowers at the end of your garden, on the edge of the woods? Then it's obvious that they shouldn't be walking there... and if they do, they are damaging your property...
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:38
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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Read what is written on the legal link provided. Do NOT interpret the law, just EXACTLY a written.
This is how I read it:
Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a building, an apartment, a self-contained room within a building, an enclosed area, courtyard or garden forming a direct part of a building, or a clearly demarcated workplace or, despite requests from the lawful occupants to leave, remains in such a location, is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
The or's indicate that any of these conditions are sufficient, so could be:
Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a ... garden forming a direct part of a building... is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
So, the OP would appear (according to the English!) to have legal redress. But...

Quote:
Unlawful entry to an open space without any fence........ followed 30 seconds later by an exit from the open space the judge will smile especially in Geneva where nobody gives a shit about anything.
This. Exactly.

If the borders are made really clear, I think people would get the hint. You don't have to put fences up. Simple garden edging (raised or flat) would work and can be quite attractive, especially if you plant up to the edge.



(I am not a lawyer either, but I did manage to persuade HR that their interpretation of the employees handbook was incorrect, and that I should receive a pay increment immediately).
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:47
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

Motion-sensitive watering system precisely aimed.
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:55
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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This is how I read it:
Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a building, an apartment, a self-contained room within a building, an enclosed area, courtyard or garden forming a direct part of a building, or a clearly demarcated workplace or, despite requests from the lawful occupants to leave, remains in such a location, is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
The or's indicate that any of these conditions are sufficient, so could be:
Any person who, against the will of the lawful occupants enters a ...enclosed ... garden forming a direct part of a building... is liable on complaint to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.
So, the OP would appear (according to the English!) to have legal redress. But...
The enclosed part is important. It is more clear from the German text. "in einen unmittelbar zu einem Hause gehörenden umfriedeten Platz, Hof oder Garten". There is some federal court ruling where a courtyard was not fully enclosed, and thus no trespassing for the common people w/o Hausverbot.
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Old 21.07.2017, 12:56
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

Nosey old bags thinking you are overstepping the boundaries of your property then. Once the geometre has come & formally identified the border according to the cadastre, they will know they are in the wrong so it would be jumping the gun now to lawyer up for no reason. Ask to be informed when the geometre comes & does the measurements if you can. We had one come to do ours as it is also open where we are with a big building project planned. I have a row of high grass now along most of one side which is a psycological demarcation - actually it was the neighbor that did it so he knows where to cut the grass to. The other side just cut part of my grass today which was fine too as there were big weeds & it broke my strimmer when I tried. We often have stray people wandering through but it's always best to know your property limits as certain neighbours can be more than invasive, physically & mentally.
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Old 21.07.2017, 14:02
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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aSwissInTheUS, one quick query if I may. We do indeed know the identities of the people who have come on to our property, however this comes from others who have seen this and not anything more tangible (such as videosurveillance footage).

In the absence of any enclosure around our private parcel (apart from the landscaping I mentioned which does provide a physical barrier with only two 1 meter wide openings that are well within our lateral borders), and with only the stated accounts of witnesses, would we have sufficient cause to request an Hausverbot for an indefinite time for both people concerned?

Also fatmanfilms, no there are no shared air raid shelters. Please understand the trespassing is far from innocent or justified.
Why don't you put a barrier of some kind on those two one meter openings? A cute gate or low fence if the rest is clear you can't walk through. I wonder if those two openings make them look like pass throughout.
Again, why not call the Juge de la paix and/or commune to see if they have any advice?

These two neighbors might want a path, doesn't mean they can have one.

If it's not in the cadastre, the plans or the documents setting up the copropriété OR it wasn't written in any of the general assembly meetings, they need approval and admin/ legal changes.
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Old 21.07.2017, 14:09
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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If you don't want to put up a fence, then put up a sign. Also tell them to leave when they enter your property.

Not sure how easy it is to enforce your rights without a fence. I'm not sure the Swiss equivalent of trespass is even applicable if your land is not enclosed in some way.
I think it's similar to the Uk in that there is an assumed right of access for anybody who wants to walk up to your door and ring the bell. Using that right does not constotute trespassing. You have to specifically remove that right by putting up a notice or sending a letter.

Surveying work falls under assumed right as the surveyor believes he is acting on your behalf (seeing the person who hired him is a co-proprietor). If that is not the case you must state that in writing, presumably by sending a registered letter to the surveyor's office.
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Old 21.07.2017, 14:16
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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This is how I read it:
The ruling you and others mention is not for open gardens.
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Old 21.07.2017, 14:47
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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Why don't you put a barrier of some kind on those two one meter openings?
Pleasant and sufficient are wooden posts with a rope.
http://www.thetimbermill.co.uk/index.php?aid=17093
http://www.lakecentralfence.com/nauticalropefence.html
http://www.knotandrope.com/store/pc/...anila-p154.htm
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Old 21.07.2017, 14:53
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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I think it's similar to the Uk in that there is an assumed right of access for anybody who wants to walk up to your door and ring the bell. Using that right does not constotute trespassing. You have to specifically remove that right by putting up a notice or sending a letter.

Surveying work falls under assumed right as the surveyor believes he is acting on your behalf (seeing the person who hired him is a co-proprietor). If that is not the case you must state that in writing, presumably by sending a registered letter to the surveyor's office.
Not sure I'd want Uk rights:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...eighbours.html
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Old 21.07.2017, 16:50
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Re: What punishment for documented property trespass?

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Nosey old bags thinking you are overstepping the boundaries of your property then. Once the geometre has come & formally identified the border according to the cadastre, they will know they are in the wrong so it would be jumping the gun now to lawyer up for no reason.
Yes this is quite true. The other piece of the context is the one who has engaged the lawyer to hire the geometre is someone with whom we have always had quite amicable relations with although most in the coproperty do not get along with her. She expected us to support her on a vote in our last assemblée generale and we did not, which is about the only reason we can think of to explain her recent actions. All very frustrating and fatiguing. Such a sad little life she leads.

As someone else suggested planting up to the border of our parcel where it meets the cordon-boisé this is in fact exactly what we have done. The transgressions onto our property have not come from anyone straying into our garden anywhere near that limit. It has been instead walking directly onto the centre of our property and by all accounts lingering a good while and observing the limit where it meets the cordon-boisé.

We are actually quite happy that she hires a geometre to identify the limit as I have said but do want to be present when it occurs. The letter we received from her lawyer told us it would take place next month (when we will be on vacation) and asked us to provide a happy welcome to the geometre on our private property.

Thanks also to those who have posted photographs of garden edgings. I/we had not thought of those and indeed they are a good deal more aesthetic than a fence. If that is all that is required to make our space "enclosed" in the eyes of Swiss law then perhaps that is something we will do, although I suppose we would have to run the line of edging across both 1 meter openings. Still, well worth thinking about and thanks as well for the links.
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