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Old 20.09.2017, 18:39
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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the only thing we know is that it was first used in Leipzig in 1892. we don't know why the baker used the name but probably because he had the impression it was a commercially interesting name in 1892 and needs to be seen in the context of history. it was a commercial product. commercial products' main intention is to sell. not to insult.
This article makes a link between the Leipzig baker and the fact that at the time the Second German Emperor was colonising and subjugating the people of east, west and south west Africa.

http://gra.ch/bildung/gra-glossar/be...hr-mohrenkopf/

I agree, it wasn't meant to insult at the time. Maybe more to celebrate and profit from the stories of colonisation and subjugation of large parts of Africa.
  #242  
Old 20.09.2017, 19:47
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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OK, so you are basically saying there are differnt levels of taking offense, and some of these are valid and others are not? And one's right to take offense is based on things that happened before any of us were born?

have I got this right?
Of course. It's all totally subjective.

I think the argument is that if something is offensive to enough people, is that a good enough reason to stop doing it?

Where it's all lost it's way over the years is when PC liberal do-gooders try and speak up for others such as those trying to stop having Christmas lights in UK towns in case they upset the Muslims (except the Muslims either don't give a damn or quite like the lights).

But, in the case of this thread, the OP does not fit this category and I really think you need to be in her shoes before passing judgement.
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  #243  
Old 20.09.2017, 19:48
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I agree, it wasn't meant to insult at the time. Maybe more to celebrate and profit from the stories of colonisation and subjugation of large parts of Africa.
Maybe the baker was really an alien who came to earth on a quasar from Cygnus 1. Maybe in his native language, Mohrenkopf just so happens to translate as 'chocolate covered disgusting sweet fluff blob on a wafer'.

Or maybe a Mohrenkopf just so happens to generally look like the head of a bald Moor.
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Old 20.09.2017, 20:24
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Maybe the baker was really an alien who came to earth on a quasar from Cygnus 1. Maybe in his native language, Mohrenkopf just so happens to translate as 'chocolate covered disgusting sweet fluff blob on a wafer'.

Or maybe a Mohrenkopf just so happens to generally look like the head of a bald Moor.
Actually, Mohr means dark-skinned, not Moor. Confusing, but there it is.
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Old 20.09.2017, 20:48
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Theres also a saying " Mohrenwäsche ". It means to try to wash an anyhow guilty person clean. So here is the association of Mohr with guilt. So Mohrenkopf is anyhow denigrating
Suppose you want this painting gone

http://www.artnet.de/künstler/karl-j...NBu_iuOVSUfWw2
  #246  
Old 20.09.2017, 21:19
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

https://www.mohrenbrauerei.at/de

Tom
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Old 21.09.2017, 09:14
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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You may be able to bring it back on topic by explaining why or how Mohrenkopf is racist, why you feel denigrated or whatever term best describes how you feel. I'm still looking for an answer to this honest question.
I know, it is really difficult to understand why a sweet / dessert / candy can be offensive because of its name, afterall, it tastes really good, so whats the problem?

Imagine a 8 year old,asking an adult, why is it called a Mohrenkopf, or what is a Mohrenkopf, because, well, they have never heard the word Mohr before, so whats a Mohrenkopf. Then the adult, replies, that Mohr was an old word used for people from Africa or Arabia. The kid, looks at the sweet, and makes a connection. Whatever the connection is, will be very individual, but, the reference has been made, a dark oval shape equals an African.

And that is offensive to me. This is also to many people an overly sensitive reaction. I can imagine, from your end of the stick it is. I dont think anyone is racist, because you are calling the sweet a Mohrenkopf, its the name, what else should you call it. But I do feel that Switzerland, needs to send out the right message to the world.

Argue as much as you may, but the word Mohr in German, was used to reference Africans, and Arabs, and it was often not used in a gracious manner.
All the other examples, so apltly gived by Edwin, do not look anything like the race, or tribe in question. But a Mohrenkopf does and its unfair to compare a continent of such diversity, beauty and intelligence to a chocolate covered fluff sweet, no matter how good it tastes.

And why did the illustrator caricature the African in Blytons books, but not the European women behind him? And pray tell why, are there no more Golliwogs in children's books anymore? Because its not an accurate portrayal of African people.

How many of the Effers on this thread, are dark skinned? Honest question. Life as a dark skinned person, is not easy, I have so many, so many incidents, here, in France and Italy, where I experienced outright prejudice.

The first day, I went to Primary school with my daughter, (we moved, so she started in a new school, 2nd Grade).
A girl in her class, came running up, really sweet, and asked
'Are you the new girl?'
'Yes'
'Are you a Asyl?'

It is difficult to be empathic, if you havent experienced prejudism regulary, but actually, thats all I ask for from a country which has a changing demographic. Empathy.
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  #248  
Old 21.09.2017, 09:39
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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What about the German proverb based on Friedrich Schiller's famous words?

Der Mohr hat seine Schuldigkeit getan, der Mohr kann gehen
Sure, well known. But how's that denigrating Mohren? If anything he's presented in a positive way in that scene as he actually did what he had agreed to but is then shoved out the door since he doesn't belong to the inner circle.

While the character is part of a conspiracy he's in company of whites so nothing racist from that perspective either.

And then there is, as already mentioned, the Mohr Caspar of the three sages (kings) visiting baby Jesus in Nazareth(Bethlehem), clearly a very noble and honorable figure. And far from unimportant for most Christians.

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the only thing we know is that it was first used in Leipzig in 1892. we don't know why the baker used the name but probably because he had the impression it was a commercially interesting name in 1892 and needs to be seen in the context of history. it was a commercial product. commercial products' main intention is to sell. not to insult.
Direct translation of the French term, who apparently were ahead of the Germans.
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Switzerland was in the slave trade involving people of dark skin, or in German "Mohren".
Wrong. Swiss were but not Switzerland.
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  #249  
Old 21.09.2017, 10:00
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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The kid, looks at the sweet, and makes a connection. Whatever the connection is, will be very individual, but, the reference has been made, a dark oval shape equals an African.
.
Nope, this is exactly the part I disagree on.

I grew up here, I know the "Mohrenkopf" well, we ate it all the time, I even very much remember the "Negerkuss" back in the days in Germany (we used to occasionally hop across the border). And I swear on all that's holy, I have not ONCE made a connection to "Africa", not as a kid, not as a teen, not as an adult. And yes I knew what a "Mohr" was.

And to add to that, even IF I had made that connection, then thinking of Africa doesn't equal racism. As Urs Max has been trying to explain a million times in this thread, the word racism implies a degradation of sorts. Going from "Mohrenkopf = Mohr = Africa" to "Africa = inferior people = racism" is really a quite significant jump isn't it.
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  #250  
Old 21.09.2017, 10:19
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Of course. It's all totally subjective.

I think the argument is that if something is offensive to enough people, is that a good enough reason to stop doing it?
Agreed.

But how large is that critical mass of people that need to be offended before you can justify changing things?

Do a handful of priveleged white anglo expats (many of them here only temporarily) living in their expat bubble and complaining they can't survive on 140K , but feeling offended on behalf of others really constitute a sufficiently large or valid group to justify dismantling an old tradition?

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Where it's all lost it's way over the years is when PC liberal do-gooders try and speak up for others such as those trying to stop having Christmas lights in UK towns in case they upset the Muslims (except the Muslims either don't give a damn or quite like the lights).
agreed

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But, in the case of this thread, the OP does not fit this category and I really think you need to be in her shoes before passing judgement.
If there is something fundamental I'm missing, with all respect, the OP is not explaining him/herself very well
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  #251  
Old 21.09.2017, 10:36
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Argue as much as you may, but the word Mohr in German, was used to reference Africans, and Arabs, ...
Of cours it was, that's its meaning after all.
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... , and it was often not used in a gracious manner.
Examples please. IMO that's exactly where Mohrenkopf differs from Negerkuss.
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All the other examples, so apltly gived by Edwin, do not look anything like the race, or tribe in question. But a Mohrenkopf does and its unfair to compare a continent of such diversity, beauty and intelligence to a chocolate covered fluff sweet, no matter how good it tastes.
Do people think of Afrika or of black people when they request one in a bakery? No, not me nor any of the colleagues at work at least (all white, half of them foreigners or of foreign origin).
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And why did the illustrator caricature the African in Blytons books, but not the European women behind him? And pray tell why, are there no more Golliwogs in children's books anymore? Because its not an accurate portrayal of African people.
Ask the British not the Swiss. Different language, different culture, different symbols and icons. I know next to nothing more about Blyton than his name.
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It is difficult to be empathic, if you havent experienced prejudism regulary, but actually, thats all I ask for from a country which has a changing demographic. Empathy.
I get that, and I agree (or would, had you raised that point) WRT to Negerkuss. But I honestly fail to see your logic or the need for empathy with Mohrenkopf.

As for prejudice, everybody's experienced it. Probably not to the extent a black person in a white society does but it's well known by everybody. Look around this board for example, you'll find plenty towards the Swiss and Switzerland including a huge amount of cultural chauvinism.
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  #252  
Old 21.09.2017, 10:39
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

yes the use of racist language is painful for black people. I wish it would not be so hard to just not use terms that hurt or offend others... there is so much more to life
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  #253  
Old 21.09.2017, 10:47
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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yes the use of racist language is painful for black people.
Of course it is, it's to everybody who's targeted - I certainly hope you didn't intend to imply it isn't for others, too, as *that* would clearly be racist.

So do show how the word Mohrenkopf is racist.
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Old 21.09.2017, 10:55
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Of course it is, it's to everybody who's targeted - I certainly hope you didn't intend to imply it isn't for others, too, as *that* would clearly be racist.

So do show how the word Mohrenkopf is racist.
He He. Change the name to niggerkopf ,then the racist(person obsessed with race) would have a reason to complain. Get a life.
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Old 21.09.2017, 11:27
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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He He. Change the name to niggerkopf ,then the racist(person obsessed with race) would have a reason to complain. Get a life.
Now that's a niggardly idea.

We need Mohr like that.

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  #256  
Old 21.09.2017, 12:03
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Life as a dark skinned person, is not easy, I have so many, so many incidents, here, in France and Italy, where I experienced outright prejudice.

The first day, I went to Primary school with my daughter, (we moved, so she started in a new school, 2nd Grade).
A girl in her class, came running up, really sweet, and asked
'Are you the new girl?'
'Yes'
'Are you a Asyl?'

It is difficult to be empathic, if you havent experienced prejudism regulary, but actually, thats all I ask for from a country which has a changing demographic. Empathy.
Where is the prejudice in this story?

It seems like the little girl asked an honest question. If most darker skinned kids are Asyls in the school, or lots of darker skinned Asyls have been arriving recently, where's the harm? It's a straightforward question, there's no unfavorable or favorable bias that would qualify it as prejudice.

You, on the other hand, are offended based on your own prejudice towards Asyls - offended at the thought that your child might be mistaken as one.


Last edited by pilatus1; 21.09.2017 at 12:09. Reason: Typos
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  #257  
Old 21.09.2017, 12:07
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Where is the prejudice in this story?

It seems like the little girl asked an honest question. If most darker skinned kids are Asyls in the school, or lots of darker skinned Aryls have been arriving recently, where's the harm? It's a straightforward question, there's no unfavorable or favorable bias that would qualify it as prejudice.

On the other hand, you are offended based on your own prejudice towards Aryls - offended at the thought that your child might be mistaken as one.

Asyl is the Germany word for shelter or refuge. Cf Tierasyl, Bürgerasyl, etc

So one child asked another if they are a shelter?

I think that's somewhere between cute and hilarious.

You could have countered and said, Asylant is the word you're looking for. Obviously the child who got those terms muddled iis either themself an Ausländer, or a bit simple.

But instead of seeing the hilarity of it all, you feel offended?

Please.
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  #258  
Old 21.09.2017, 12:16
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

where did I write that I was offended? I wasnt offended. That was an example of prejudice, a typical innocent example of the regular prejudice that one encounters.
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  #259  
Old 21.09.2017, 12:18
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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where did I write that I was offended? I wasnt offended. That was an example of prejudice, a typical innocent example of the regular prejudice that one encounters.
Where was the prejudice exactly?

Last edited by pilatus1; 21.09.2017 at 12:29.
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Old 21.09.2017, 12:31
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Where is the prejudice in this story?

It seems like the little girl asked an honest question. If most darker skinned kids are Asyls in the school, or lots of darker skinned Asyls have been arriving recently, where's the harm? It's a straightforward question, there's no unfavorable or favorable bias that would qualify it as prejudice.

You, on the other hand, are offended based on your own prejudice towards Asyls - offended at the thought that your child might be mistaken as one.

I understand OP's sentiment but this is exactly what crossed my mind too, sort of.

What if she was an "Asyl"? There are a lot of people among Asylum seekers who are neither stupid, nor uneducated.

I'll get my coat.

I remember a discussion on EF when someone from Turkey felt like shop keepers were looking down on her, thinking she was a cleaning lady and can't afford some high end products....she was immediately dismissed as snob and what not. It's sort of the same idea, different reactions.
So no, I'd say racism has nothing to do with skin colour anymore. Or not only with skin colour, it's far more and so beyond skin colour.

Last edited by greenmount; 21.09.2017 at 12:42.
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