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Old 19.09.2017, 10:57
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Moor isn't comparable to White though is it? If you came up with something actually comparable then maybe it would offensive.

Aryankopf perhaps? I'm sure that would go down well
Well, it is, actually... Mohr comes from "Mauren" and they even themselves call it still Mauretania. Neger is a bad word. Mohr is more on the factual side - a person with darker skin. There was a time where "Arabian" was not immediately connected to terrorism, but some exotic lands... I'll be the first to admit that a moors head is simply tasteless as a name in this day and age, but the term Mohr is not essentially racist. The imagery usually connected with brands and products is.
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Old 19.09.2017, 10:58
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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As I said in another thread, parents should not leave their children's education solely in the hands if teachers. Everyday life should be full of lessons.

ETA Beaten by the swift fingers of Sandgrounder.
Basic maths: yes
Basic language skills: yes
Basic science knowledge: yes
etc.etc.

Specialised history of parts of the world that I have no clue about? Yeah ok, I'll give it a go, I'm sure I could give the Swiss education system a run for it's money. False information is better than no information right?
  #83  
Old 19.09.2017, 11:01
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Moor isn't comparable to White though is it? If you came up with something actually comparable then maybe it would offensive.

Aryankopf perhaps? I'm sure that would go down well
"Aryan" itself has no negative connotation either. It is only during WWII that it became associated with (obviously presumed) racial superiority.

Mohr is a descriptive word of a dark-skinned person. Same as "black" these days (in case that is the politically correct word du jour). It is completely outdated and no one uses it anymore. But in itself it is simply not racist and doesn't imply any form of (presumed) racial inferiority either.

But I'm assuming 25 years from now we will eliminate the word "black" and all its translations from every language because it is automatically offensive, oh actually worse yet, racist.
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  #84  
Old 19.09.2017, 11:02
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Time and a place. The place should be school, not Migros, if an actual lesson is to be learnt.
If there is no Mohrenkopf there will be no lesson, neither school, nor in the Migros, nor back on the way back home from Migros, nor when you are back at home, nor anywhere else.

To help you find a term which would apply to white persons: Bleichgesicht, Langnase.
  #85  
Old 19.09.2017, 11:02
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Unless they are wearing a football jersey of a different color.
No one is born a Manure fan. It's taught in schools in London, Lahore & Lagos.
  #86  
Old 19.09.2017, 11:05
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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But I'm assuming 25 years from now we will eliminate the word "black" and all its translations from every language because it is automatically offensive, oh actually worse yet, racist.
Meanwhile, just over the border:



Tom
  #87  
Old 19.09.2017, 11:10
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

Expanding on my previous point, Swiss people should take this controversy as a compliment: it wouldn't be happening at all if Swiss police were shooting black people in the face for having a broken tail light.

It's all a matter of perspective.
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Old 19.09.2017, 11:11
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Basic maths: yes
Basic language skills: yes
Basic science knowledge: yes
etc.etc.

Specialised history of parts of the world that I have no clue about? Yeah ok, I'll give it a go, I'm sure I could give the Swiss education system a run for it's money. False information is better than no information right?
Did you know you can send your kids to boarding school and to camps in the holidays? With a little creative thought, you shouldn't have to spend any time with them at all!
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  #89  
Old 19.09.2017, 11:31
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Did you know you can send your kids to boarding school and to camps in the holidays? With a little creative thought, you shouldn't have to spend any time with them at all!
Your assertion is that because I think specialised history should be taught in schools, I don't want to be with my children. Could you expand on your point please, because I can't find any logic in it and therefore I don't understand it.
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Old 19.09.2017, 11:57
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

Can someone explain why Mohrenkopf is considered racist in a German language context? Please note I'm not talking about any translation, this is about a German term in a German-speaking context.

Let me remind you of the (or one) definition of racism:
"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Also note that, contrary to Neger, Mohr has a neutral-to-positive connotation. For instance Caspar, one of the three sages(kings) travelling to worship newborn Jesus, is considered to have been a Mohr.

So, how are Arabs and north Africans discriminated(in a general sense) against by that sweet? And how are white people presented to be superior?
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Old 19.09.2017, 12:04
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Can someone explain why Mohrenkopf is considered racist in a German language context? Please note I'm not talking about any translation, this is about a German term in a German-speaking context.
It isn't, that's kind of the point

I dare say some non-German speakers translate the word "Mohr" incorrectly and still do so even after being told a thousand times that, in German, it is not an offensive or derogatory, let alone a racist word.

If you want to see some -ism or other and look long enough, you will find it.

As far as the "committee" goes - well some people got nothing better to do I guess. That's also the same ones probably that want to change "Fussgänger" into "Fussgänger und Fussgängerinnen" (or something to that effect).
  #92  
Old 19.09.2017, 12:25
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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It isn't, that's kind of the point

I dare say some non-German speakers translate the word "Mohr" incorrectly and still do so even after being told a thousand times that, in German, it is not an offensive or derogatory, let alone a racist word.

If you want to see some -ism or other and look long enough, you will find it.

As far as the "committee" goes - well some people got nothing better to do I guess. That's also the same ones probably that want to change "Fussgänger" into "Fussgänger und Fussgängerinnen" (or something to that effect).
I totally understand that this is something you want swept under the carpet, for whatever reason, but I'm glad it's something that even SRF are willing to face:

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/wie-...ist-mohrenkopf
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Old 19.09.2017, 12:36
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I totally understand that this is something you want swept under the carpet, for whatever reason, but I'm glad it's something that even SRF are willing to face:

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/wie-...ist-mohrenkopf
I totally understand that you want to make this a bigger deal than it is, for whatever reason, but maybe you should realize that SRF's conclusion in your own link is in fact not the same as yours:

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Ugochukwu erinnert sich gut an seine erste Begegnung mit einem «Mohrenkopf». Es war in einer Konditorei in Freiburg. Ein kleines Mädchen bestellte ein solches Gebäck und schämte sich, als sie den Mann dunkler Hautfarbe hinter sich stehen sah. «Sie war ganz rot geworden und hat sich bei mir entschuldigt.» Er habe erst gar nicht gewusst, warum sie sich bei ihm entschuldigt habe. Sie habe ihm erklärt, was «Mohrenkopf» eigentlich bedeute. Das sei für ihn kein Problem, habe er gesagt, denn es gehöre zu der Geschichte. Er esse dieses Schokogebäck übrigens sehr gerne, egal wie man es nenne
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Die Menschen hätten gerne eine klare Regel, was rassistisch ist und was nicht. Doch die gebe es nicht, heisst es bei der eidgenössischen Kommission gegen Rassismus. Wenn sich jemand beim Eingang eines Freizeitparks an den halbnackten Afrikanern mit Baströckchen stösst, oder wenn jemand wegen der Figur eines schwarzen Dieners am Karussel reklamiert, landen solche Meldungen bei Doris Angst. Angst ist Geschäftsführerin der Rassismuskommission und häufig mit Meldungen über angeblich rassistische Symbole konfrontiert.

Sie findet aber, die Jagd nach rassistischen Abbildungen lenke zu sehr ab vom Rassismus im Alltag. «Wir müssen aufpassen, dass wir mit solchen Dingen nicht ablenken von der wirklichen und tatsächlichen Diskriminierung im Alltagsleben, denen Menschen mit dunkler Hautfarbe ausgesetzt sind, sei es auf dem Arbeitsmarkt, sei es auf dem Wohnungsmarkt.»

Das findet auch Ugochukwu.
I have zero problem with the debate itself. I have a problem with the insinuation that this or similar words or symbols are racist no matter what and that they must be banned no matter what. You think history is relevant and important - correct, it absolutely is, and it is often underestimated. But historical relevance is a two-way street. You think "the Swiss" need more awareness of colonial history and slavery because you actually think they have never heard of either - fine, believe what you want. But if you want to put emphasis on history, then you should listen to the other side of the story from a Swiss (or by extension German) viewpoint as well.
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Old 19.09.2017, 12:42
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Here is the Duden meaning of Zigeuner:
Angehörige[r] des Volkes der Sinti und Roma
(umgangssprachlich, meist abwertend) jemand, der ein unstetes Leben führt
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Zigeuner
translated into English.....
Members of the people of the Sinti and Roma
(colloquially, usually derogatory) someone who leads an changable life. How did you ever get untouchable from all that? Further does the Zigeunerschnitzel look like a Zigeuner? What does a Gypsy look like?....today, just like you and me
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A recent DNA study conducted by Indian and Estonian research facilities shows that the Roman/Romani/Gypsy and Sinti people originate from the Untouchable Dalit community from India.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...udy-shows.html

And they don't mind how a Schnitzel looks, the mind the use of the word Zigeuner.

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Aus dem Sprachgebrauch deutschsprachiger staatlicher und nichtstaatlicher Verwaltung, der Justiz, großer gesellschaftlicher Institutionen wie der Gewerkschaften oder der Kirchen, internationaler Behörden und der Politik ist der Begriff „Zigeuner“ inzwischen verschwunden. Er wird auch in den Medien kaum noch gebraucht, mit Ausnahme von rechtsextremen Publikationen und ihnen nahestehenden Organisationen. Eigenbezeichnungen wie Roma oder Sinti haben andere Bedeutungen und andere Konnotationen als die Fremdbezeichnung. Sie lassen sich daher nicht mit ihr gleichsetzen, sondern lösen sie mit eigenständigen Inhalten ab.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zigeuner
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Old 19.09.2017, 12:45
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I totally understand that this is something you want swept under the carpet, for whatever reason, but I'm glad it's something that even SRF are willing to face:

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/wie-...ist-mohrenkopf
Even SRF? There is so little happening here, they'll report on anything that might spark at least some emotion. So who do they ask? "Patricia Purtschert forscht an der ETH Zürich über die postkoloniale Schweiz." There is a post-colonial Switzerland? Can somebody remind me what colonies Switzerland had?

The article claims that all things labelled Mohr are from a time of colonialism and slavery. That's just factually wrong as the name has been around much longer. Which is not surprising given that the Moors were running Spain for a long time... and while we are talking about stereotypes: The moors were actually slave traders (some are allegedly still today), not the slaves. In the 16th and 17th century did they go on man hunts througout the mediterranean. For some reason do we always just hear of the white English slave traders sending black people from Western Africa to the US, but the Moors had a much longer period of business and millions of slaves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade
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Old 19.09.2017, 12:48
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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And they don't mind how a Schnitzel looks, the mind the use of the word Zigeuner.
Ok, but simply put: the dish comes with a sauce made of paprika which was quite uncommon over here... and pretty typical for the Sinti and Roma of the Balkans.

Yes, calling a person "Zigeuner" is bad. But in this context does the name not carry any negative meaning for me at all. It's not racist, it's actually trying to sell the Schnitzel as something more exotic than it is... I slowly get the impression that I am not PC enough for 2017 anymore...
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Old 19.09.2017, 12:53
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

The world Slave comes from Slav (from the times the Visigoths were literally hunting them for trade). The word Barbarian comes from Bulgarian, the way the Greeks used to call their northern neighbors. As a Slav and Bulgarian I demand that NOBODY uses these words, they are offensive, derogatory and...what else shall i come up with..oh, yes - RACIST!

The midweek topics at EF never fail to surprise me. I guess we have too many housewives and middle-managers around that are utterly bored.
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Old 19.09.2017, 12:59
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I totally understand that you want to make this a bigger deal than it is, for whatever reason, but maybe you should realize that SRF's conclusion in your own link is in fact not the same as yours:
My point was that the conclusion was not that same as yours. Your conclusion, it's not racist. SRF conclusion, it's not clear.


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I have zero problem with the debate itself. I have a problem with the insinuation that this or similar words or symbols are racist no matter what and that they must be banned no matter what. You think history is relevant and important - correct, it absolutely is, and it is often underestimated. But historical relevance is a two-way street. You think "the Swiss" need more awareness of colonial history and slavery because you actually think they have never heard of either - fine, believe what you want. But if you want to put emphasis on history, then you should listen to the other side of the story from a Swiss (or by extension German) viewpoint as well.
It's true, I think the history is relevant in this case. When something is given it's name in the time of a German Emperor who was colonising Africa (and
he wasn't doing so by polite request), that should still be taken into account a century later.

It's all excused because Switzerland wasn't part of the slave trade so it's used innocuously. Unfortunately, Switzerland was part of the slave trade so this position holds no water. In Britain a lot of racist symbols related to the slave trade have been removed (I hope all) and it's time that happened here.

Last edited by DanLF; 19.09.2017 at 13:21. Reason: edit:correction
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Old 19.09.2017, 13:01
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Even SRF? There is so little happening here, they'll report on anything that might spark at least some emotion. So who do they ask? "Patricia Purtschert forscht an der ETH Zürich über die postkoloniale Schweiz." There is a post-colonial Switzerland? Can somebody remind me what colonies Switzerland had?
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzer...-trade/3472130
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Old 19.09.2017, 13:02
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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"Aryan" itself has no negative connotation either. It is only during WWII that it became associated with (obviously presumed) racial superiority.

Mohr is a descriptive word of a dark-skinned person. Same as "black" these days (in case that is the politically correct word du jour). It is completely outdated and no one uses it anymore. But in itself it is simply not racist and doesn't imply any form of (presumed) racial inferiority either.

But I'm assuming 25 years from now we will eliminate the word "black" and all its translations from every language because it is automatically offensive, oh actually worse yet, racist.
Ask a Dravidian, They arent too impressed by the Aryans who pushed them further and further South. The Aryans who permenated a culture that white is beautiful, which still exisits in Indian society today.

You are right the term Moor, or Mohr is not racist. The problem, is not the noun, but the fact that the name is given to a dark chocolate covered fluff sweet desert. Which as Lorz has gratefully pointed out with her post

Why are dark skinned people so sensitive to these terms.....some people oversensitve? Because, we are far too often judged by our appearances. Each of us has had different experiences which has molded our sensitivity.
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