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Old 19.09.2017, 13:09
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Ok, but simply put: the dish comes with a sauce made of paprika which was quite uncommon over here... and pretty typical for the Sinti and Roma of the Balkans.

Yes, calling a person "Zigeuner" is bad. But in this context does the name not carry any negative meaning for me at all. It's not racist, it's actually trying to sell the Schnitzel as something more exotic than it is... I slowly get the impression that I am not PC enough for 2017 anymore...
It's also a problem of the group and how they behave (without doubt in the Netherlands), no matter how we call them, it will be a word with bad meaning in a short and used to insult people because the Roma and their incredible high criminality numbers are looked down on whatever name they will get. considering the facts that on percentage they have the highest amount of people with a criminal record (around 75% in the Netherlands), and are the group with the lowest IQ in the Netherlands (and other countries), and that it is perfectly acceptable to use young children for crimes won't help them.
(And yes, some people here now will be upset, but read the facts before you judge me.)
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  #102  
Old 19.09.2017, 13:13
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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It's also a problem of the group and how they behave (without doubt in the Netherlands), no matter how we call them, it will be a word with bad meaning in a short and used to insult people because the Roma and their incredible high criminality numbers are looked down on whatever name they will get. considering the facts that on percentage they have the highest amount of people with a criminal record (around 75% in the Netherlands), and are the group with the lowest IQ in the Netherlands (and other countries), and that it is perfectly acceptable to use young children for crimes won't help them.
(And yes, some people here now will be upset, but read the facts before you judge me.)
Really lowest IQ, what statistics are you using?
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  #103  
Old 19.09.2017, 13:38
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Really lowest IQ, what statistics are you using?
Official researches which shows them having a low IQ

Give this one a reading it sums up the results of a big bunch of different studies, and also does mention some of the causes.

http://cloud2.snappages.com/ecc3fa83...hukov%20II.pdf

Last edited by EdwinNL; 19.09.2017 at 15:14. Reason: forgot the link...
  #104  
Old 19.09.2017, 13:43
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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You are right the term Moor, or Mohr is not racist. The problem, is not the noun, but the fact that the name is given to a dark chocolate covered fluff sweet desert. Which as Lorz has gratefully pointed out with her post
It can't reasonably be given to something with significantly different color given the meaning of Mohr. Loz shows it's fairly aptly placed.

But how is it racist? In what way? How are black people denigrated or whatever you'd like to call it by the term?

And in what way does it differ from Wienerli (sausage), Hamburger (hamburger), or Pariser (condom), or are these racist as well?
  #105  
Old 19.09.2017, 13:48
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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But how is it racist? And in what way does it differ from Wienerli (sausage), Hamburger (hamburger), or Pariser (condom), or are these racist as well?
People from Hamburg, Paris or Vienna aren't a race, are they?
  #106  
Old 19.09.2017, 13:53
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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People from Hamburg, Paris or Vienna aren't a race, are they?
Neither are Mohren. All four are part of one (not the same one).
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Old 19.09.2017, 13:55
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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It's also a problem of the group and how they behave (without doubt in the Netherlands), no matter how we call them, it will be a word with bad meaning in a short and used to insult people because the Roma and their incredible high criminality numbers are looked down on whatever name they will get. considering the facts that on percentage they have the highest amount of people with a criminal record (around 75% in the Netherlands), and are the group with the lowest IQ in the Netherlands (and other countries), and that it is perfectly acceptable to use young children for crimes won't help them.
(And yes, some people here now will be upset, but read the facts before you judge me.)
Why would any restaurant owner in his right mind use "Zigeuner" in a dish he advertises then?

Honestly: It's an outdated word which was indeed negative. My grandma may have used it, but it was already outdated during my parents life time and they are in their 70s... if I hear "Zigeunerschnitzel" do I not think of the Sinti and Roma immigrating from Bulgaria into Germany and abusing the social system with their new EU rights... I think of a slightly spicy paprika sauce, that's all. Pointing at some Balkan person and shouting "Zigeuner" is indeed an insult... but I just don't see the drama about naming a Sauce. If you want something to argue about... let's tell the Americans that Tuna isn't "Chicken of the seas".
  #108  
Old 19.09.2017, 13:56
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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And in what way does it differ from Wienerli (sausage), Hamburger (hamburger), or Pariser (condom), or are these racist as well?
Some stuff have their name because they originate from that place:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_W%C3%BCrstchen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger#History
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondom

But do not beat me if i am wrong, because I do not intend to end as "blanc battu"
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Old 19.09.2017, 14:03
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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It can't reasonably be given to something with significantly different color given the meaning of Mohr. Loz shows it's fairly aptly placed.

But how is it racist? In what way? How are black people denigrated or whatever you'd like to call it by the term?

And in what way does it differ from Wienerli (sausage), Hamburger (hamburger), or Pariser (condom), or are these racist as well?
For historical reasons. How things are named is important. As I said earlier, a German Emperor was in the process of colonising and enslaving large parts of Africa. So it's pretty obvious how the name came about.

Had Vienna been sacked and it's inhabitants enslaved when the Weinerli got it's name, we'd probably call it something else.

The Swastika was a symbol of peace a long time ago, but that got warped into evil, and the Germans now generally consider that part of history quite important enough to ban it.
  #110  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:03
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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For historical reasons. How things are named is important. As I said earlier, a German Emperor was in the process of colonising and enslaving large parts of Africa. So it's pretty obvious how the name came about.
You're wrong with that. Mohr/Moor/Mor is centuries older than German colonialism. Heck, Germany itself is less than 150 years old.
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Some stuff have their name because they originate from that place:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_W%C3%BCrstchen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger#History
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondom

But do not beat me if i am wrong, because I do not intend to end as "blanc battu"
That doesn't make it racist, it just explains why it's named the way it is.

I find the comparison to Negerkuss and Zigeunerschnitzel exemplary. Zigeuner and Neger have clear negative connotations so I see how people can take offense. I don't make that connection but can live with that. No discussion or further explanation necessary.

But that logic doesn't apply to Mohrenkopf so what is it?
  #111  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:10
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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You're wrong with that. Mohr/Moor is centuries older than German colonislaism. Heck, to be pedantic Germany itself is just 150 years old.

That doesn't make it racist, it just explains why it's named the way it is.

I find the comparison to Negerkuss and Zigeunerschnitzel exemplary. Zigeuner and Neger have clear negative connotations so I see how people can take offense. No discussion or further explanation necessary.

But that logic doesn't apply to Mohrenkopf so what is it?
I'd be all on board if it is an actual Sinti or an actual African taking offense. But just as you can read in the SRF link posted: The "example African" thought it's not a big deal... it's a specific group of upper middle class folks with liberal arts degrees that seem to be most offended about stuff that doesn't even insult them. They just feel responsible to speak up for everyone else.

Don't like Zigeunerschnitzel? Have some German food instead:
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  #112  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:21
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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You're wrong with that. Mohr/Moor/Mor is centuries older than German colonialism. Heck, Germany itself is less than 150 years old.
I'm right about what we are talking about, the Mohrenkopf.

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That doesn't make it racist, it just explains why it's named the way it is.

I find the comparison to Negerkuss and Zigeunerschnitzel exemplary. Zigeuner and Neger have clear negative connotations so I see how people can take offense. No discussion or further explanation necessary.

But that logic doesn't apply to Mohrenkopf so what is it?
Why is the Swastika banned in Germany? It was a symbol of peace long before it became a symbol of hate. The answer: due to the events of the second world war the symbol came to represent atrocities including genocide. The Mohrenkopf is what it is and was named at the time of the colonisation and enslavement of these people, which were also atrocities.

So... at the time of the naming of the Mohrenkopf, these same people were having atrocities committed against them by the Germans (amongst others, but we are talking about a German invention so..). Hopefully that explains the link between the name and why it is insensitive.
  #113  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:25
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I'd be all on board if it is an actual Sinti or an actual African taking offense. But just as you can read in the SRF link posted: The "example African" thought it's not a big deal... it's a specific group of upper middle class folks with liberal arts degrees that seem to be most offended about stuff that doesn't even insult them. They just feel responsible to speak up for everyone else.
I noticed.

As I said I don't make that connection, just like you, but to me there's logic to the argument, so, live and let live. I don't see any logic in the Mohrenkopf thing though.
  #114  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:26
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I'm right about what we are talking about, the Mohrenkopf.



Why is the Swastika banned in Germany? It was a symbol of peace long before it became a symbol of hate. The answer: due to the events of the second world war the symbol came to represent atrocities including genocide. The Mohrenkopf is what it is and was named at the time of the colonisation and enslavement of these people, which were also atrocities.
Actually, your example of the swastika follows the same lines as the Mohrenkopf (Christ, are we still discussing this? )...

The symbol as it appears in the Indian subcontinent is still there for all to see on ancient structures and texts. Nobody has scratched it off or altered it in any way. It is accepted in its context for what it is. The fact that the Nazis pinched the symbol for their own ends is neither here nor there.

Students can use the symbol in context as it was used pre-1936. People using the symbol to get leery about white supremacy can't use it.

Same goes for the Mohrenkopf. You can use it for a delicious dessert but not use the word to describe the new bloke at work.

Context is everything...
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  #115  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:26
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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It might not have been meant as racist to start, but primary school kids are not linguistic experts.
When she refers to adult males with dark skin as black men, and plays a game called 'whose afraid of the black man' she doesn't know the history of the phrase and does not really go a research it, she just sees that both are black men, and maybe she should be afraid.


Schwarzer Mann might not, but Schwarzermann does, try to distinguish between the two when you are saying them as a child.
In Autria they don't have the kind Swiss Schmutzli, but this far more ferocious creature called Krampus.

Would you want this creature to scare your kids, or just the watered down version that is the kind demon called Schmutzli?

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Old 19.09.2017, 14:30
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Would you want this creature to scare your kids, or just the watered down version that is the kind demon called Schmutzli?
And just for the record: Even in primary school did I not necessarily understand what a demon is, but I never mistook "Knecht Ruprecht" (same thing, German name) for an African or any other human... I apparently once asked my mum "why is this guy dressed up as a cow?"

"Wer hat Angst vorm Schwarzen Mann?" never ment African to me either... but simply "bad guy". Because the bad guys wear black clothes in pretty much all movies, comics and what not else.
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  #117  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:32
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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Well, it is, actually... Mohr comes from "Mauren" and they even themselves call it still Mauretania. Neger is a bad word.
Just for the fun of playing the Devil's Advoicate here:

There is still a country called Nigeria, and another called Niger. I have yet to hear of anybody proposing they rename these countries.

So if the people living there take no issue with the names, why should I?
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  #118  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:34
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I'd be all on board if it is an actual Sinti or an actual African taking offense.
Non-white people on this thread have taken offence.

I've no idea of what it is like to be non-white in Switzerland but I can guess that at times, it's not very pleasant.

In the same way, I can appreciate that the term Mohrenkopf is not pleasant either.
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  #119  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:48
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I'm right about what we are talking about, the Mohrenkopf.
It's still an unfounded (and probably not conclusively provable) claim. Wiki doesn't suffice here as it contradicts itself (see Negerkuss).

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Non-white people on this thread have taken offence.

I've no idea of what it is like to be non-white in Switzerland but I can guess that at times, it's not very pleasant.
Agreed. But that should be all the more reason for those taking offense to be extra careful where they use -isms themselves.

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In the same way, I can appreciate that the term Mohrenkopf is not pleasant either.
That may be but it's still to be shown how and why it's racist.

Last edited by Urs Max; 19.09.2017 at 16:04. Reason: inserted "to be extra careful"
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  #120  
Old 19.09.2017, 14:52
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Re: Is the Mohrenkopf a racist piece of candy?

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I think the Brits, Americans, Dutch, French and Belgians in this thread might want to go and sit in their rooms for a while and have a little think about the irony of accusing Swiss people of racism for using an old fashioned name for a cake.

Just sayin', like...
Good idea.

And I think I'll sip some Darjeeling and nibble a Balaklava while I'm thinking about it. We never named stuff after people we were nasty to.
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