Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:13
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
PhilipJoseph has no particular reputation at present
Socialism vs. Capitalism

I am thinking of moving to Switzerland but wanted to verify my conceptions about Switzerland.

I live in Canada, and we are becoming extremely socialist. Taxes rates are far too high (>50%), the government then wastes the money, and the welfare system encourages laziness.

Here is my understanding of what Switzerland is like (and please correct me if I'm wrong - I know that these are generalizations and possibly misconceptions).

1. Switzerland has lower tax rates (10-25% depending on the canton).
2. There is a good welfare system but it is respected and the system is not abused.
3. The government is a more direct form of democracy compared to other countries, and the cantonal governments have lots of power to make their own policy decisions.
4. The population is mostly right-leaning and pro-capitalism. Hard work and entrepreneurship is celebrated, not punished. (This is an assumption I have made based on past election results and also the vote on basic income - right leaning parties are always the majority, with the one socialist party getting 20-30% of the vote).
5. Each home must keep a rifle, but they are kept locked up. The purpose of the rifle is for a citizens army and for hunting, but Switzerland is not "gun crazy" like the USA.
6. There are many languages spoken in Switzerland. I only speak English and a little bit of French. If I move to a French speaking Canton, I will fit in better if I speak and learn French.

Again, these are the sweeping generalizations that I have accumulated over my lifetime and I fully understand that I may be completely wrong - please just let me know.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:41
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,141
Groaned at 208 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 12,530 Times in 5,151 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

1. Right. There is also VAT: 8% for most non-food items. And then there are the stealth taxes. You will pay for EVERY service you use and every government interaction. You MUST purchase health insurance (not cheap); there is no socialised healthcare. Don't even think about driving a car if you want to avoid stealth taxes.

2. There is no welfare system unless you REALLY need it. That means you have no income and have exhausted almost all of your assets. There is no dole/unemployment benefit; there is mandatory unemployment insurance which for most people will pay a high proportion of their former salary (up to 80%) for up to just under two years (longer for older people, shorter for those who haven't worked for long) while hunting for a new job.

3. Correct. Makes for a highly confusing time for outsiders.

4. Depends where you go. The cities are more "liberal' (as you North Americans are fond of saying) than them rural folk. The most popular political party is pretty far right of the other major parties, but does not hold a majority nationally. Sure, if you work hard, you'll do better than if you don't, but jobs are scarcer than they were 10 years ago. And employee rights are not what you'd be used to; they are few and far between.

5. Completely wrong. Homes are not required to have rifles. Men are required to serve in the military or to undertake other service to the community (or buy their way out of doing so), and take their service rifle home. This may not be used for hunting! And if by "citizens' army" you mean some sort of militia or lynch mob, well, no. It's an army—the regular sort, just that it never actually fights anybody.

6. There are dozens of languages spoken in Switzerland. Four of them are national languages, and English is not one of them. Yes, if you speak a little French, starting off in Wales* would be a good idea.


*The German-speakers feel about the French-speakers a little as the western and eastern provinces of Canada feel about the Québécois.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:41
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 7,269
Groaned at 49 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 10,865 Times in 5,102 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

I guess the grass is always greener?

You didn't mention if your only nationality is Canadian. Medea will be along shortly to crush your dreams if you don't have Swiss or European nationality to go with the Canadian.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:44
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
PhilipJoseph has no particular reputation at present
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

How much would decent health insurance be? I was thinking that CHF10,000 to CHF15,000?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:45
grumpygrapefruit's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zuriwest
Posts: 5,389
Groaned at 35 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 13,487 Times in 3,498 Posts
grumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Monday is the new Friday. Today at least.
Reply With Quote
The following 13 users would like to thank grumpygrapefruit for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:49
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
PhilipJoseph has no particular reputation at present
Quote:
View Post
1. Right. There is also VAT: 8% for most non-food items. And then there are the stealth taxes. You will pay for EVERY service you use and every government interaction. You MUST purchase health insurance (not cheap); there is no socialised healthcare. Don't even think about driving a car if you want to avoid stealth taxes.

2. There is no welfare system unless you REALLY need it. That means you have no income and have exhausted almost all of your assets. There is no dole/unemployment benefit; there is mandatory unemployment insurance which for most people will pay a high proportion of their former salary (up to 80%) for up to just under two years (longer for older people, shorter for those who haven't worked for long) while hunting for a new job.

3. Correct. Makes for a highly confusing time for outsiders.

4. Depends where you go. The cities are more "liberal' (as you North Americans are.fond of saying) than them rural folk. The most popular political party is pretty far right of the other major parties, but does not hold a majority nationally. Sure, if you work hard, you'll do better than if you don't, but jobs are scarcer than they were 10 years ago. And employee rights are not what you'd be used to; they are few and far between.

5. Completely wrong. Homes are not required to have rifles. Men are required to serve in the military or to undertake other service to the community (or buy their way out of doing so), and take their service rifle home. This may not be used for hunting! And if by "citizens' army" you mean some sort of militia or lynch mob, well, no. It's an army—the regular sort, just that it never actually fights anybody.

6. There are dozens of languages spoken in Switzerland. Four of them are national languages, and English is not one of them. Yes, if you speak a little French, starting off in Wales* would be a good idea.


*The German-speakers feel about the French-speskers a little as the western and eastern provinces feel about the Québécois.
Thanks for writing all of this out. This is very helpful and it sounds like Switzerland is pretty great.

Quote:
View Post
I guess the grass is always greener?

You didn't mention if your only nationality is Canadian. Medea will be along shortly to crush your dreams if you don't have Swiss or European nationality to go with the Canadian.
My understanding is that there is something called a "fiscal deal" which can be negotiated with the canton you move to which grants residency as long as you have >CHF10m in assets to bring with you?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 14.11.2017 at 13:02. Reason: merging consecutive replies
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Kt Zh
Posts: 5,258
Groaned at 26 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 7,516 Times in 3,277 Posts
edot has a reputation beyond reputeedot has a reputation beyond reputeedot has a reputation beyond reputeedot has a reputation beyond reputeedot has a reputation beyond reputeedot has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
How much would decent health insurance be? I was thinking that CHF10,000 to CHF15,000?
Suppose you go with the mandatory, “basic” insurance with a low deductible. Depending on where you live and the insurance model, estimate about chf 400/ month, more or less. Then, if you qualify for supplimental (private room, other stuff) count on another chf 100- 200/ month So yeah, maybe chf 5000 per year plus.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 13.11.2017, 23:56
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Leimbach, Zürich
Posts: 1,514
Groaned at 90 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 1,412 Times in 727 Posts
EdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
How much would decent health insurance be? I was thinking that CHF10,000 to CHF15,000?
Way too high.

Roughly 3K with a deductible of 2.500,- up to roughly 4K with a deductible of 300,- for the basic insurance, and you pay 10% for all medicine above the deductible, and 10% of all treatments above the deductible with a maximum of 700,- a year.

Last edited by Ace1; 14.11.2017 at 00:31. Reason: c/to/too. it just bothers me ;)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:04
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,141
Groaned at 208 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 12,530 Times in 5,151 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
My understanding is that there is something called a "fiscal deal" which can be negotiated with the canton you move to which grants residency as long as you have >CHF10m in assets to bring with you?
A few cantons, mostly in Suisse Romande, offer these deals. If you're not Swiss and haven't lived here for at least ten years, and have whatever the minimum asset total is that they require, then you may be able to negotiate a deal. You would not be able to work in Switzerland, but presumably that would not be on your agenda in these circumstances.

You wouldn't be allowed to post on EF, either.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:06
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,141
Groaned at 208 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 12,530 Times in 5,151 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
This is very helpful and it sounds like Switzerland is pretty great.
Yes, that was clearly the conclusion to be drawn from that post.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:08
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
PhilipJoseph has no particular reputation at present
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
A few cantons, mostly in Suisse Romande, offer these deals. If you're not Swiss and haven't lived here for at least ten years, and have whatever the minimum asset total is that they require, then you may be able to negotiate a deal. You would not be able to work in Switzerland, but presumably that would not be on your agenda in these circumstances.

You wouldn't be allowed to post on EF, either.
Is there a negative attitude against these fiscal deals?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:15
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,141
Groaned at 208 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 12,530 Times in 5,151 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
Is there a negative attitude against these fiscal deals?
No, most people in Switzerland feel that it's entirely fair that wealthy foreigners can ignore the rules that govern ordinary mortals and obtain residency here purely by virtue of having a shedload of cash. Generally, they applaud the usually successful attempts of these people to pay less tax than the average hard-working, right-wing party-voting worker. It's just a shame that not every canton offers these wonderful deals.

If you do take up this opportunity, I recommend you buy yourself a gold-wrapped Lamborghini to ingratiate yourself further with the locals.
Reply With Quote
The following 11 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:18
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
PhilipJoseph has no particular reputation at present
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
No, most people in Switzerland feel that it's entirely fair that wealthy foreigners can ignore the rules that govern ordinary mortals and obtain residency here purely by virtue of having a shedload of cash. Generally, they applaud the usually successful attempts of these people to pay less tax than the average hard-working, right-wing party-voting worker. It's just a shame that not every canton offers these wonderful deals.

If you do take up this opportunity, I recommend you buy yourself a gold-wrapped Lamborghini to ingratiate yourself further with the locals.
Ahh ok a tad sensitive are we? I'm asking because I don't know... No need to get sparky. Is there other ways of getting residency? I would prefer to work and contribute taxes normally but I understand I would have difficulty getting residency... Would it be possible to purchase and then operate a small business?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank PhilipJoseph for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:29
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,141
Groaned at 208 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 12,530 Times in 5,151 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
Ahh ok a tad sensitive are we? I'm asking because I don't know... No need to get sparky. Is there other ways of getting residency? I would prefer to work and contribute taxes normally but I understand I would have difficulty getting residency... Would it be possible to purchase and then operate a small business?
Same problems with residency. I recommend marrying a Swiss person (it'd have to be one of the opposite sex; hope that's OK with you); worked for me, although I foolishly waited till I had permanent residency before finding my Swiss miss. Once you've got your residency permit, you could look for a small business to buy. There were a couple of good ones going a while ago—Swiss Air was one, and Syngenta's just gone—but you never know, another may pop up. Maybe that right-wing party will gain in.popularity and privatise the railways.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:34
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
PhilipJoseph has no particular reputation at present
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
Same problems with residency. I recommend marrying a Swiss person (it'd have to be one of the opposite sex; hope that's OK with you); worked for me, although I foolishly waited till I had permanent residency before finding my Swiss miss. Once you've got your residency permit, you could look for a small business to buy. There were a couple of good ones going a while ago—Swiss Air was one, and Syngenta's just gone—but you never know, another may pop up. Maybe that right-wing party will gain in.popularity and privatise the railways.
What are the problems with residency?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 2,422
Groaned at 10 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 3,572 Times in 1,396 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

https://www.ch.ch/en/renewal-overvie...sidence-permit

This website, www.ch.ch, is an excellent source of information about the Swiss government systems. Some pages are even kindly translated into English.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:37
me.anon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: thun
Posts: 1,571
Groaned at 28 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,969 Times in 956 Posts
me.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
. . .
2. There is a good welfare system but it is respected and the system is not abused.
. . .

Quote:
View Post
. . .
My understanding is that there is something called a "fiscal deal" which can be negotiated with the canton you move to which grants residency as long as you have >CHF10m in assets to bring with you?
. . .
Indeed. The state of the welfare system ranks as an important consideration for those in this wealth bracket. You never know when you may require state assistance to get subsistence items like a drop of Château Mouton Rothschild or some pâté de foie gras
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank me.anon for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:39
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
PhilipJoseph has no particular reputation at present
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
Indeed. The state of the welfare system ranks as an important consideration for those in this wealth bracket. You never know when you may require state assistance to get subsistence items like a drop of Château Mouton Rothschild or some pâté de foie gras
My question about the welfare system was not because I might need it. Canada has open borders and highly abused welfare. As a taxpayer, I'm sick of paying for it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank PhilipJoseph for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:41
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,141
Groaned at 208 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 12,530 Times in 5,151 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
What are the problems with residency?
None, apart from the obligation to pay tax and respect the laws.

The problem I was referring to was that of obtaining residency. It's quite difficult for non-EU citizens.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 14.11.2017, 01:42
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,141
Groaned at 208 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 12,530 Times in 5,151 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Socialism vs. Capitalism

Quote:
View Post
My question about the welfare system was not because I might need it. Canada has open borders and highly abused welfare. As a taxpayer, I'm sick of paying for it.
Yet you'd be happy to cut a deal to avoid paying your fair share of tax?
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Davos supremo wants new model for capitalism The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 18.01.2012 18:29
Why are Americans so opposed to socialism? Loz1983 International affairs/politics 73 06.11.2010 08:43
Live Stream: NYF 2010 on Capitalism Chicago International affairs/politics 0 23.06.2010 16:05
'At's capitalism, baby Uncle GroOve General off-topic 0 28.08.2008 15:30
Poverty & Capitalism DaveA Jokes/funnies 88 05.06.2008 15:36


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0