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Old 14.12.2017, 23:01
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Move to Zurich or Geneva?

If one would get two software development job offers, one for 75k in Geneva and other for 85k in Zurich, which option is a better bet financially and which might represent a better life style? One is a single person living in a WG.

1. Finance

85k over 75k might sound a lot, but from what I've heard ZH should be more expensive in general, so at the end it 85k in ZH might be not that far from 75k in GVA? ( ZH might have higher expenses namely accommodation, but lower taxes and lower health insurance costs. GVA might be in the same boat with accommodation expenses, but higher health insurance costs and taxes)

2. Life style

I never lived in ZH, but I spent some time goofing there while living in Aargau. I didn't like much the vibe. The overview is the following:

- Feels very poshy, sterile and without soul. A habitat for bankers and attractive people at it's finest.
- Some snobby and rude people living there.
- Germany 2.0
- no vibe
- feels bit racist on times

I've never been in GVA (except heading for the airport), currently I live in the potato ditch;

+ Apparently much better mentality on the west-side, less horrible people per square km.
+ more friendly faces.
+ French vibe radiating some charm into the environment
+ people are uglier, they wear cheaper clothes, but they have more character
+ better looking landscape, starts to feel "Mediterranean/French" (vineyards, jura-style landscape)
+ trashy streets, dirty buildings, visible signs of lower standard in comparison to German-speaking cantons
- I might have wrong impression. One can really get the feel only when he's living there.

At the end, life style might be better for me on the west side of potato ditch. East-side has not really the vibe that I'd like to have, however it pays better - maybe. Eventually better payment could compensate the worse life style, but is the higher salary of 85k over 75k really worth it, especially when taking in account the different cost of living?
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Old 14.12.2017, 23:13
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

If you like trash than certainly GVA over ZRH indeed.
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Old 15.12.2017, 01:44
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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If one would get two software development job offers, one for 75k in Geneva and other for 85k in Zurich, which option is a better bet financially and which might represent a better life style? One is a single person living in a WG.

1. Finance

85k over 75k might sound a lot, but from what I've heard ZH should be more expensive in general, so at the end it 85k in ZH might be not that far from 75k in GVA? ( ZH might have higher expenses namely accommodation, but lower taxes and lower health insurance costs. GVA might be in the same boat with accommodation expenses, but higher health insurance costs and taxes)

2. Life style

I never lived in ZH, but I spent some time goofing there while living in Aargau. I didn't like much the vibe. The overview is the following:

- Feels very poshy, sterile and without soul. A habitat for bankers and attractive people at it's finest.
- Some snobby and rude people living there.
- Germany 2.0
- no vibe
- feels bit racist on times

I've never been in GVA (except heading for the airport), currently I live in the potato ditch;

+ Apparently much better mentality on the west-side, less horrible people per square km.
+ more friendly faces.
+ French vibe radiating some charm into the environment
+ people are uglier, they wear cheaper clothes, but they have more character
+ better looking landscape, starts to feel "Mediterranean/French" (vineyards, jura-style landscape)
+ trashy streets, dirty buildings, visible signs of lower standard in comparison to German-speaking cantons
- I might have wrong impression. One can really get the feel only when he's living there.

At the end, life style might be better for me on the west side of potato ditch. East-side has not really the vibe that I'd like to have, however it pays better - maybe. Eventually better payment could compensate the worse life style, but is the higher salary of 85k over 75k really worth it, especially when taking in account the different cost of living?
Not Swiss but spent time in both. Genève is much more international, I heard a statistic stating half of the roughly 200K population is foreign in some way (including French who commute over the border). They are very serious about being French, despite the fact they are Swiss (French < Swiss in my mind). Relatively friendly people, at least one good English speaking bar I found, decent weather. I agree with the Mediterranean feel, but it is certainly dirtier in some areas. I will say though, there is much French graffiti using Arab slang, so it seems there is a shitty element there as well which I wasn't expecting as an American. I can't recall rents but in a decent area I would imagine they are similar to Zürich's, which mirror New York City in some cases.

Zürich is closer to what I would call Swiss, and its the kind of place I would raise a family in. While both cities are not exactly "fun", Zürich is a bit dry and more serious in my opinion. I'm not sure on sterile, but it felt cleaner although it also had it's share of graffiti. I would say the actual Swiss of Genève are more socially conservative. A gentleman in a bar once remarked to me there is still a Calvinist element there. I saw gay flags and paraphernalia in Zürich which I did not see elsewhere in the country. I'm not sure either city had a "vibe" but the only "snobby" people I encountered were in Genève (not many though). I would say either place you need to be familiar with the local language as both cities did not have many English speakers. I recall clerks having to step away and bring someone over to translate more than once.

Just my two cents as a foreigner myself.
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Old 15.12.2017, 11:41
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

Whether GV is more international, is questionable. Yes, there are more people with various looks, but they all speak French only! Multinational and monocultural.
For an English speaker, communication options in ZH are much more impressive.
Yes, frankophones care about life vs. work much more than German speakers do. No one in GV software company will care if you go for a 2.5-hours lunch break and come back at 3 pm with a strong smell of alcohol. Something absolutely unacceptable in ZH.
Consider taxes, though. Not sure how they play in 75 to 85 K range, but when income tax becomes sensible, ZH, and especially ZH suburbs, could be a lot better financial choice, even at equal base salary.
Ask both prospective employers for something called "payslip simulation", so you can see what netto will be landing at your bank account every month after all deductions.
Obligatory health insurance may cost more in GV, too. Call 2 or 3 large insurers and ask them how monthly "premiums" will vary for you depending on city/canton.
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Old 15.12.2017, 18:31
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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Whether GV is more international, is questionable. Yes, there are more people with various looks, but they all speak French only! Multinational and monocultural.
For an English speaker, communication options in ZH are much more impressive.
Yes, frankophones care about life vs. work much more than German speakers do. No one in GV software company will care if you go for a 2.5-hours lunch break and come back at 3 pm with a strong smell of alcohol. Something absolutely unacceptable in ZH.
Consider taxes, though. Not sure how they play in 75 to 85 K range, but when income tax becomes sensible, ZH, and especially ZH suburbs, could be a lot better financial choice, even at equal base salary.
Ask both prospective employers for something called "payslip simulation", so you can see what netto will be landing at your bank account every month after all deductions.
Obligatory health insurance may cost more in GV, too. Call 2 or 3 large insurers and ask them how monthly "premiums" will vary for you depending on city/canton.
That's what I'm talking about.. ZH seems to be more like a rat-race, while I'm more of a cafe-culture dude.

Look at this pic:


Apparently it was taken in GVA, during the noon. I never saw something like this in German-speaking part.
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Old 15.12.2017, 18:39
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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Apparently it was taken in GVA, during the noon. I never saw something like this in German-speaking part.
Then you have been going to the wrong places I´d think
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Old 15.12.2017, 18:42
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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Then you have been going to the wrong places I´d think
could be.
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Old 15.12.2017, 18:48
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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+ French vibe radiating some charm into the environment
I just puked a little in my mouth...


P.S: I am in no way denying that most of your stereotypes have some true core, but like most Aargauers did you make the mistake to never look beyond Paradeplatz and Bahnhofstrasse.

P.P.S: I never found people in Geneva to be exactly "down to earth"... they seemed just as arrogant as in Zurich but with less reason to be so.
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Old 15.12.2017, 18:53
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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I just puked a little in my mouth...


P.S: I am in no way denying that most of your stereotypes have some true core, but like most Aargauers did you make the mistake to never look beyond Paradeplatz and Bahnhofstrasse.

P.P.S: I never found people in Geneva to be exactly "down to earth"... they seemed just as arrogant as in Zurich but with less reason to be so.
mah, likely you're right. Switzerland is Switzerland. I'll just take the biggest money and move to ZH.

case closed.
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Old 15.12.2017, 18:57
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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mah, likely you're right. Switzerland is Switzerland. I'll just take the biggest money and move to ZH.

case closed.
Looks like you like a bit of a more gritty place. Next time in ZH check out Kreis 4 (not just the hookers and drug dealers, but the more international bits around Langstrasse). I lived for years in 8048 (thats in Kreis 5) which was a very not-so-posh area with pretty normal people. Seefeld and anything around Zürichberg is probably not for you...
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Old 15.12.2017, 19:10
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

You will pay less tax in Zurich. So you will have more salary and more take home money.

Cost of living is probably similar.
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Old 15.12.2017, 23:11
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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You will pay less tax in Zurich. So you will have more salary and more take home money.

Cost of living is probably similar.
From the experience of friends, you get smaller, more run down property for the same money in Geneva compared to Zurich and more of the complaints on here about asshole landlords seem to come from the west.
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Old 16.12.2017, 03:46
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

ok, financially I should be better in ZH.

What about life style and mentality? Would appreciate any opinions from foreigners, especially those who tried both sides...
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Old 16.12.2017, 07:05
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

Meanwhile, in Zurich we don't just sit about in the summer drink coffee in the streets:
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Old 16.12.2017, 09:45
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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2. Life style

I never lived in ZH, but I spent some time goofing there while living in Aargau. I didn't like much the vibe. The overview is the following:

- Feels very poshy, sterile and without soul. A habitat for bankers and attractive people at it's finest.
- Some snobby and rude people living there.
- Germany 2.0
- no vibe
- feels bit racist on times
I live and work in Zuriwest and it is nothing like you describe. I find it very international, ethnically diverse with plenty going on. Zürich is not just the Bahnhofstrasse.
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Old 16.12.2017, 09:49
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

As usual, lots of sweeping statements. As someone pointed out almost correctly, 41.2% of the Canton of Geneva 490.578 strong population have non-Swiss origins (official state statistics for 2016). They could be from anywhere round the world, including expats with a high level of income.
That in itself makes it difficult to determine Geneva's true identity.


Here's the kind of people you will find in Geneva:


- Fully integrated expats happily conversing in English or French and often at least another language.
- Not very integrated expats who meet in their own circles and will be happy to speak just in English.
- Old Genevan families who have incredible wealth, meet in their own circles and god forbid if they'll ever invite an expat in these circles.
- Quite a lot of Italian and Portugese second or third generation of migrants who definitely bring a touch of the Mediterranean on the food scene at least
- Ordinary families who try to make a living against the eye watering high rents but enjoy all the free outdoor activities and incredible range of cultural events organised by the canton of Geneva-
- Farmers and winemakers who'll happily share a glass or twenty with you when you pay them a visit.
- Students, artists, craftsmen and women with phenomenal creativity and visibility.
- + a social mix expected in any middle-size to big city.


I'm sure you'd get exactly the same in Zurich. They are both cosmopolitan cities by Swiss standards with all the pros and cons this entails.
There used to be some graffiti around some parts of Geneva, but there was a massive campaign to eradicate this and I must say on my first visit to Zurich recently, I found the graffiti more obvious in Zurich.


Born and bred Genevans may be reluctant to strike new friendships at first, but there is such a linguistic, cultural and social diversity that you're bound to find your luck...you might even operate in the different circles I have mentioned there.


I would definitely come and visit, albeit this time of the year is not the best as tends to be a bit grey when the snow is all around except in the city centre. Come in May/ June and you'll get the real feel for Geneva.
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Old 16.12.2017, 09:51
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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From the experience of friends, you get smaller, more run down property for the same money in Geneva compared to Zurich and more of the complaints on here about asshole landlords seem to come from the west.
The first might be true. But the second for sure not.

Most complicates about problems with neighbors and landlords come from the German part of the country. They French and Italian parts are more laid back.
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Old 16.12.2017, 10:02
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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The first might be true. But the second for sure not.

Most complicates about problems with neighbors and landlords come from the German part of the country. They French and Italian parts are more laid back.
Maybe it's just unconscious bias on my part, but I notice lots of talk of "Regie"s causing issues, which AFAIK is a French word. I wouldn't disagree on the neighbours point though!
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Old 17.12.2017, 01:39
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

We lived 4 years in Zurich (Thalwil) and 5 years in Geneva(canton Vaud). I will not comment on taxes but from the financial point of view it seems to me that Geneva has more affordable shopping options to offer. Itis very close to French border (from some locations only 5 min) which allows you to use many services in France and not pay Swiss prices( think hairsalons, shopping, post, restaurants...). It seems to me Zurich more stiril with little soul... living 4 years I did not hear children playing and lauging in the bulding courtyards.... In Geneva I notices and welcomed children laughs you could hear from the balcony in a summer nights.
I have a dog and in Zurich I had old ladies to follow me just to keep an eye if I will pick up after my puppy and in Geneva I felt as people more relaxed about it but it is also true that it is dirtier and in a way does not radiate true swiss punctuality and cleanness as it is in Zurich.
For the americans and foreigners in general I felt as it was easier to survive in french part. However it also depends if you will learn the language or not? If you do you will enjoy living in both places but for the true swiss life style experiance Zurich would provide you better feel of it. I would have taken more $$$$
Good luck with your move!
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Old 17.12.2017, 12:14
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Re: Move to Zurich or Geneva?

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We lived 4 years in Zurich (Thalwil) and 5 years in Geneva(canton Vaud). I will not comment on taxes but from the financial point of view it seems to me that Geneva has more affordable shopping options to offer. Itis very close to French border (from some locations only 5 min) which allows you to use many services in France and not pay Swiss prices( think hairsalons, shopping, post, restaurants...).
I forgot on this very important fact.

Quote:
It seems to me Zurich more stiril with little soul... living 4 years I did not hear children playing and lauging in the bulding courtyards.... In Geneva I notices and welcomed children laughs you could hear from the balcony in a summer nights.
I have a dog and in Zurich I had old ladies to follow me just to keep an eye if I will pick up after my puppy...
For me, Zurich is the purest form of Switzerland that I would describe in the same way as you did - sterile and with little soul -, and I don't like it being such, at all. I'm more of a "Mediterranean" person preferring vibrant and laid-back environments (imagine the taste of Greece, Italy and Balcan states). I can recall when I arrived in Switzerland for the first time (Zurich and the cantons around), it felt like coming in dead version of Austria/Germany. Add to this anal mentality and you get that "I don't want to live here feel", unless you compensate it with high salary.

Quote:
and in Geneva I felt as people more relaxed about it but it is also true that it is dirtier and in a way does not radiate true swiss punctuality and cleanness as it is in Zurich.
That's what I'm after.

Quote:
For the americans and foreigners in general I felt as it was easier to survive in french part. However it also depends if you will learn the language or not? If you do you will enjoy living in both places but for the true swiss life style experiance Zurich would provide you better feel of it. I would have taken more $$$$
Good luck with your move!
As mentioned above, I get very bitter taste in mouth when Zurich comes to my mind. To live there it would be only in case of a necessary evil and that is due to more $$$$$$ offered in comparison to elsewhere. Living in ZH must be justified .

If I would knew that Geneva (or Lausanne) is more of a screwed place in a positive way, I wouldn't even think about getting in ZH and would accept lower salary offer in GVA. Unfortunately, GVA might be only slightly better (well, it's still in Switzerland...) and I wouldn't gain that much in terms of life style, but I would earn less bucks.
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