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-   -   Can you choose your second pillar insurance? (https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/289152-can-you-choose-your-second-pillar-insurance.html)

JoshWilliams 10.01.2019 21:02

Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Can we choose our own second pillar insurance or just accept the one "imposed" by our employer? What if e.g. the employer decides to switch to another insurance after some years but we already built a good relationship with the former one? Can we stay or must go?

Thanks to share your insight.

- Josh

fatmanfilms 10.01.2019 21:06

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshWilliams (Post 3029208)
Can we choose our own second pillar insurance or just accept the one "imposed" by our employer? What if e.g. the employer decides to switch to another insurance after some years but we already built a good relationship with the former one? Can we stay or must go?

Thanks to share your insight.

- Josh

Company chooses company second pillar.

JoshWilliams 10.01.2019 21:30

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029210)
Company chooses company second pillar.

Ok so that sounds like a no. Any idea what's the best second pillar company, any good or bad experience with the following three: SwissLife, VITA/Zurich, AXA ?

Cheers,
- Josh

Jim2007 11.01.2019 02:02

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshWilliams (Post 3029218)
Ok so that sounds like a no. Any idea what's the best second pillar company, any good or bad experience with the following three: SwissLife, VITA/Zurich, AXA ?

Cheers,
- Josh

Sounds like you really don’t understand....

It is not an insurance, it is a pension fund. Some companies manage their fund in house and some get a third party to do it for them. Last time I was involved there were 93 pension fund managers offering their services.

ivank 11.01.2019 04:06

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim2007 (Post 3029258)
It is not an insurance, it is a pension fund.

Pillar 2 pension fund legally *is* foremost a type of insurance in Switzerland and not just a bank account

Jim2007 11.01.2019 04:59

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ivank (Post 3029263)
Pillar 2 pension fund legally *is* foremost a type of insurance in Switzerland and not just a bank account

I never said it was a bank account and the only part of tThe fund that might possibly be construed as an insurance is the invalidity element.

peaky 11.01.2019 09:50

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
While employed, your fund must move to where the company dictates. Its the company fund they have set up.


If you leave a Job, you can then decide where that Money goes. Once you are out of a company, you can move that money to any fund or bank account you like (thats able to accept 2 pillar).


Legally, when starting with your next employer, you are meant to move that money from the account you have chosen, into their fund. Now I dont know how that is enforced, and what implications there are by not moving it. So as far as I know, if you have a chunk of money you feel is doing more in the thing you have set up over the new companies pension fund, keep it there. You wont be able to top it up, and your new payments will still be going to the current employers fund, but you'll have another slice of it working in an account of your choice.

fatmanfilms 11.01.2019 10:07

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim2007 (Post 3029268)
I never said it was a bank account and the only part of tThe fund that might possibly be construed as an insurance is the invalidity element.

Actually the pension monthly payment is insurance for living longer.

Jim2007 11.01.2019 10:13

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029315)
Actually the pension monthly payment is insurance for living longer.

It is not an insurance in the legal since.

fatmanfilms 11.01.2019 10:17

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim2007 (Post 3029319)
It is not an insurance in the legal since.

My definition of an annuity clearly differs from yours, can you buy one from anyone other than an insurance co?.

"An annuity is a type of policy issued by an insurance company "

aSwissInTheUS 11.01.2019 11:51

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029320)
My definition of an annuity clearly differs from yours, can you buy one from anyone other than an insurance co?.

Yes. Many Swiss pensions are paid from an independent pension fund. Especially since AXA no longer offers their all inclusive pillar 2 products.
https://www.axa.ch/content/axa/en/un...-benefits.html

Speaking of 'Swiss', the Swissair pension fund is performing exceptionally well. Unfortunately, there is nearly zero option how you could join them.
https://www.watson.ch/wirtschaft/alt...hwimmt-im-geld

22 yards 11.01.2019 12:12

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029320)
My definition of an annuity clearly differs from yours, can you buy one from anyone other than an insurance co?.

"An annuity is a type of policy issued by an insurance company "

Pillar 2 pensions are not annuities. For starters, the money you pay into the fund does not necessarily belong to you (depending on the structure of the fund). Secondly, in some cases the pensioner may take his/her entire pension as a lump sum. Try doing that with an annuity. Thirdly, banks offer Pillar 2 Freizügigkeitskonti; they are not insurance companies.

fatmanfilms 11.01.2019 12:24

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 22 yards (Post 3029392)
Pillar 2 pensions are not annuities. For starters, the money you pay into the fund does not necessarily belong to you (depending on the structure of the fund). Secondly, in some cases the pensioner may take his/her entire pension as a lump sum. Try doing that with an annuity. Thirdly, banks offer Pillar 2 Freizügigkeitskonti; they are not insurance companies.

I never claimed they were, but then we both know that :D

A pillar 2 has a guaranteed annuity rate attached to it, you are free not to take that option, we both know that :D .

A Bank will usually offer pensions through a subsidiary called a 'pension foundation' so it's not actually the main Bank you'r dealing with, again we both know this :D

22 yards 11.01.2019 13:52

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029398)
I never claimed they were, but then we both know that :D

We both know that you kinda did claim that pensions are annuities, actually. Nobody mentioned (or was remotely talking about) annuities before you popped in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029398)
A pillar 2 has a guaranteed annuity rate attached to it, you are free not to take that option, we both know that :D .

No, a pillar 2 has a (pathetic) guaranteed earning rate (of around 1% p.a.) over which the poor pension contributor has no control; we both know that in most cases they cannot opt out of the fixed rate model selected by their employer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029398)
A Bank will usually offer pensions through a subsidiary called a 'pension foundation' so it's not actually the main Bank you'r dealing with, again we both know this :D

We both know that I specifically mentioned Freizügigkeitskonti, which are offered by the bank and not by any pension foundation—and which allow investors to select their preferred mode of investment.

fatmanfilms 11.01.2019 13:59

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 22 yards (Post 3029434)

No, a pillar 2 has a (pathetic) guaranteed earning rate (of around 1% p.a.) over which the poor pension contributor has no control; we both know that in most cases they cannot opt out of the fixed rate model selected by their employer.


We both know that I specifically mentioned Freizügigkeitkonti, which are offered by the bank and not by any pension foundation—and which allow investors to select their preferred mode of investment.

You're confusing growth of funds guaranteed rate with guaranteed pensionable rate currently of 6.8% previously 7.2% for the mandatory part.

Freizügigkeitkonti are not directly invested by the bank, by a subsidiary which is pension foundation not a Bank :D If you don't believe me look at the Banks' accounts.

I seem to remember you never believed that when you deposit money in a Bank it belongs to the Bank, not the account holder, do you really believe that would be allowed with pension assets?

aSwissInTheUS 11.01.2019 14:17

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
A Freizügigkeitskonto will not offer an annuity at 'maturity'. Only a lump sum payment. https://www.beobachter.ch/finanzen/p...die-rente-sein

If you have to park your pillar 2 for long term it is really important that you get the best and most out of it.

W/o any endorsement what so ever, a good resource and starting point what can be possible can be found at the website of Liberty.
https://www.liberty.ch/en/vested-ben...berty-account/


PS: To answer the original question Can you choose your second pillar 'insurance'? Maybe. Some employers offer the option that the income above ca. 130k can be insured more independently
http://www.pensionskassenvergleich.c...ngen/index.php

Jim2007 11.01.2019 14:39

Re: Can you choose your second pillar insurance?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3029320)
My definition of an annuity clearly differs from yours, can you buy one from anyone other than an insurance co?.

"An annuity is a type of policy issued by an insurance company "

Nobody mentioned an annuity and it does not matter what your definition is, it is not an insurance.

And a pension is not an annuity either before you go there. In fact some of the rules in Switzerland means that your contributions may not even be yours in certain circumstances.

And if you are the owner of the company, you can 'engineer' it that your payout on dissolution is far greater than your contributions - great tax situation ;-)


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