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  #21  
Old 24.02.2019, 23:40
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

My fixed expenses in Switzerland are also 2k normally. The biggest factor is housing, so for short periods I was spending 2k on housing alone. It's not easy to find a good and cheap housing, though it can happen if you are lucky. 1k for a room in a shared flat is fairly doable. Of course, the above fixed expenses figure is a bit oversimplified, I don't include in it any new clothes or other shopping, medical expenses, etc., all the things which should not happen/be necessary but happen regularly anyway. I'd say that the variable necessary expenses tend to add between 200 - 500 a month.
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Old 25.02.2019, 00:47
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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My fixed expenses in Switzerland are also 2k normally. The biggest factor is housing, so for short periods I was spending 2k on housing alone. It's not easy to find a good and cheap housing, though it can happen if you are lucky. 1k for a room in a shared flat is fairly doable. Of course, the above fixed expenses figure is a bit oversimplified, I don't include in it any new clothes or other shopping, medical expenses, etc., all the things which should not happen/be necessary but happen regularly anyway. I'd say that the variable necessary expenses tend to add between 200 - 500 a month.

Well, I don't think I would be OK staying in a shared flat. My 2k Canadian estimate included a downtown one-bedroom apartment and a car (not a necessity, but adds a lot to the quality of life you live in Canada).
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Old 25.02.2019, 15:59
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

By a 50% savings rate you're talking about living on an after-tax monthly income of 3.5k to 4k. This is possible as a single guy with no kids and no car, but the real question is will you actually enjoy living here on that budget? You're ruling out a lot of entertainment (eating out and night's out/drinking in Zurich will be few and far between on that budget). You will struggle to do much weekend travelling which is one of the key benefits of living here (for example, 1.5 hour flight to Madrid on a Friday night and you can be eating tapas at 10pm....can't do that from Toronto). Activities like skiing will be difficult which is one of the main benefits of winter here. You're also not budgeting for learning German which, although not a must, will make your life here 100% more enjoyable and open up social networks and job opportunities. As more of a half way approach, I would look to spend 6K out of an 8k budget which would still give you 2k (24k of annual savings) and allow you to at least enjoy living here.
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  #24  
Old 25.02.2019, 19:29
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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By a 50% savings rate you're talking about living on an after-tax monthly income of 3.5k to 4k. This is possible as a single guy with no kids and no car, but the real question is will you actually enjoy living here on that budget?
I think that's not a question I do the same reasoning as the OP when evaluating a relocation. The point is to establish a baseline, what you really have to spend. Next step is to look at budget planning, what can you afford to make your life more enjoyable. In the summer my spendings for entertainment are the lowest but I enjoy the time the most, hiking as much as I can
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Old 25.02.2019, 23:34
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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By a 50% savings rate you're talking about living on an after-tax monthly income of 3.5k to 4k. This is possible as a single guy with no kids and no car, but the real question is will you actually enjoy living here on that budget? You're ruling out a lot of entertainment (eating out and night's out/drinking in Zurich will be few and far between on that budget). You will struggle to do much weekend travelling which is one of the key benefits of living here (for example, 1.5 hour flight to Madrid on a Friday night and you can be eating tapas at 10pm....can't do that from Toronto). Activities like skiing will be difficult which is one of the main benefits of winter here. You're also not budgeting for learning German which, although not a must, will make your life here 100% more enjoyable and open up social networks and job opportunities. As more of a half way approach, I would look to spend 6K out of an 8k budget which would still give you 2k (24k of annual savings) and allow you to at least enjoy living here.
As much as I agree that saving 50% (after taxes, obviously!) on a 8k budget will mean you've to take some cuts in your activities, it's not all that dark.

If you don't own a car, you can easily upgrade yourself to a GA (2nd class) - which costs approx 3600 CHF if you max. out the days you won't be using it (5+) by storing it.

That's ALL your Swiss transport costs.

Then, you can take advantage of cheap flights from Basel, Friedrichshafen, Milano (ok, the last ones costs a few CHF for the few stops outside Switzerland) - or just go with Swiss from Zürich or Geneva. RT can be had for less than 99 CHF to basically everywhere in Europe when you book during sale periods. 3* hotels - or even dorm's, if you want to go ultra-low - your way, and the full weekend in (almost) every European major city will not cost you much more than 250 CHF..

OK, those 8k became, after 1st, 2nd pillar and taxes about 6.5k to play with.

So, saving 3000 (a bit less than half, given..) would leave 3500 CHF for all other items..

Considering a location which is not hot but reasonable well connected to the S-Bahn, a 2-room apartment (which, in Switzerland, means living room + 1 bed room) will cost anything from about 1200 to 1400 CHF - it can go in both directions, but let's just take something very average. NOT posh, but not terrible either. 15-20min by train from the city. Living in the city on 3500 CHF will be VERY tight unless you get a great rental place..

Let's assume 1500 CHF incl water/electricity/washing etc.
Leaves 2000 CHF..

Mandatory health insurance and we're down to approx 1700 CHF.

GA as mentioned above, down to 1400 CHF.

Food? Let's be (relatively) generous and say 600 CHF. It's not great, but meat is on the plate every day. You gotta cook your lunch (bring to work) in my calculations, so I've added a bit extra cash here. And sometimes you just might have forgotten it, or any other reason, and go "splurge" on a non-home made lunch. (Canteen can be cheap, depending on the company)

And if you want to safe some extra, head to German Aldi once in a while (again, free thanks to the GA) and combine it with a nice day trip to Konstanz, Friedrichshafen, Singen (or Jestetten, if it's mostly about shopping )..

Anyway, down to 800 CHF.

Phone&contract: 100 CHF per month. Will allow for a good contract+reasonable good phone every 2 years. Down to 700 CHF.

Clothes? Personal hygiene? In the case for first, UNFORTUNATELY dirt cheap nowadays (throw-away culture!), in the case for second, cheap too. I'd say 100 CHF per month are already fine enough, unless you want branded goods or got to wear brand new shoes every months.. 600 CHF left.

So you still got 600 CHF left.. which you could burn on a city trip every month (let's be generous and say 300 CHF per trip), and some frequent visits to bars or restaurants with friends (unless you go splurge, 50 CHF will buy you a decent amount of beers or a bit more will be fine for a reasonable basic dinner)

Personally, I think that's not too bad. You can still live quite decently on 3500 CHF a month (many Swiss DO! Some even get a whole family through with not much more, albeit obviously their health insurances will be covered and their taxes would be lower in such case..) as long as you KNOW about your limitations. Buying expensive meat would be on the last, taking expensive visits to clubs, flying business class (or more than 1-2 times a year long haul holidays) - but I'd still say that if you manage your budget well, you can not just survive on 3500 CHF, but actually enjoy. Trips through Switzerland will be "free", travel across Europe isn't killing it, you just gotta learn where your money will be eaten away and where it will be safe.
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  #26  
Old 26.02.2019, 03:54
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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I think that's not a question I do the same reasoning as the OP when evaluating a relocation. The point is to establish a baseline, what you really have to spend. Next step is to look at budget planning, what can you afford to make your life more enjoyable. In the summer my spendings for entertainment are the lowest but I enjoy the time the most, hiking as much as I can

Thanks, that was precisely my message. This thread was not meant to be about how to live dirt cheap, but rather to establish a baseline (fixed expenses) to evaluate a relocation.
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  #27  
Old 26.02.2019, 04:06
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

Thanks for your great post, YuropFlyer. Very useful and detailed. What are normal car ownership expenses (gas + maintenance + insurance + price depreciation) in Switzerland?
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  #28  
Old 26.02.2019, 08:19
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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Sorry for having taken so long to reply, I didn't have access to my computer. Thanks for your detailed. This is why created my thread - to people's opinion on my estimates. I suspected that Canada was expensive, and you confirmed it. Interestingly enough, price estimates on popular enough websites are often inaccurate and underestimate real prices. For example, the mean for an estimate for a three-course meal for two people in a mid-range restaurant in Waterloo (I live nearby) is 75 CAD. That's ridiculous, I would say the mean should be at least 100 CAD or higher if you add tip and taxes (confirmed by a recent visit). The mean for an imported beer in restaurant is 6.75 CAD. I would say it should be at least 8.50 CAD plus 13% taxes plus 15% tip. I can go on and on.



Is your estimate for 300CHF for groceries realistic? According to my research, one should use the scaling factor of two for groceries (meaning, 600 CHF).






I live in Cambridge, ON (KW area). Are you saying that, unlike 95k in Vancouver, one can have a good life for 130k CHF in Zurich or that 95k CAD in Vancouver is the same as 130k CHF in Zurich?
I’m a Toronto raised and Waterloo/Vancouver educated before moving to Geneva.

Definitely 130K gets you further than 95K Toronto/WaterlooVancouver especially with someone who watches their money like you.

In Canada you need the car, but at the same time most young people I know also have transit passes. The amount of eating out also drains your pocket book, and as you mentioned a dinner quickly ballons up with tax and tip. I don’t know if you considered that in this salary range your taxes are considerably lower in Zurich.

If you’re not completely obsessed with eating meat, you should do just fine.

As others have suggested, maybe be a bit flexible with your saving rate unless you’re on your way to FIRE
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  #29  
Old 26.02.2019, 10:23
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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Thanks for your great post, YuropFlyer. Very useful and detailed. What are normal car ownership expenses (gas + maintenance + insurance + price depreciation) in Switzerland?
A cheap car (second hand, bought for maybe 6000 CHF) that only needs regular maintanance and is driven around only 10-15k per year, where you switch tires twice per year yourself and only get mandatory insurance can probably be had for about 700 CHF per month all incl if driven for at least 5 years.

100 CHF buying per month, 100 CHF fuel per month, about 400 for insurance (I just got a few random quotes for a small car, surprised how high it has become, but that's probably due to you having no "positive history" and might become lower over time) and 100 for maintenance/tires.

Plus parking.

Plus, if something goes wrong, the extra repair fees. That's as cheap as it goes. If you're living in Zürich or a suburb nearby, you really don't need to own a car. Public transport is fast and efficent (I'd, personally, take longer to go to work by car than I do by train, door to door, and I'm not even living nor working very near the stations.)

A car will in ANY case be much more expensive than taking public transport.

What might be cheaper is a scooter..
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Old 26.02.2019, 14:59
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

...and if you want a medium-class car (acquisition price 15-25.000 CHF) as a rule of thumb you should calculate with 0.70 CHF/km.
This means that depreciation, service, fuel, 1 parking in garage, annual taxes, etc - the ownership of the car takes you on average 1,000- CHF netto from your monthly salary.

Versus public transport: General Abonnament which is about 350- CHF/Month for the first abo in the house. (Spouse, Children, have discounts)
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Old 26.02.2019, 19:53
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

Regarding car, it's quite unnecessary if you are single unless you opt to live in some very unfortunate place. Public transport is really good. You can conveniently take a pay as you go car for the rare occasions when a car does make sense https://www.sbb.ch/en/station-servic...arsharing.html

I didn't see anyone mentioning the parking costs, you should know that in Switzerland the parking fee can be higher than the car leasing ;-)
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  #32  
Old 26.02.2019, 21:55
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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A cheap car (second hand, bought for maybe 6000 CHF) that only needs regular maintanance and is driven around only 10-15k per year, where you switch tires twice per year yourself and only get mandatory .... buying per month ... about 400 for insurance
Do you mean the minimum, "mandatory", insurance for a "cheap" car is around 4800 CHF per year. Elvia quotes about one tenth of that value. See elvia.ch.
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Old 27.02.2019, 00:27
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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Do you mean the minimum, "mandatory", insurance for a "cheap" car is around 4800 CHF per year. Elvia quotes about one tenth of that value. See elvia.ch.
Oops. I thought it was monthly. My bad! While I had several cars, so far, they were always insured through company..

The difference isn’t big between a small and an expensive car for the mandatory part (Haftpflicht) though. Since that only insured you against damage done at other cars, not your own one.

Monthly car rate would be approx 400 CHF then.. plus parking etc
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Old 27.02.2019, 03:21
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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Regarding car, it's quite unnecessary if you are single unless you opt to live in some very unfortunate place. Public transport is really good. You can conveniently take a pay as you go car for the rare occasions when a car does make sense https://www.sbb.ch/en/station-servic...arsharing.html

I didn't see anyone mentioning the parking costs, you should know that in Switzerland the parking fee can be higher than the car leasing ;-)

Can you elaborate on the parking costs? Are we talking about hundreds of CHFs per months here? Wow
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  #35  
Old 27.02.2019, 08:17
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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Can you elaborate on the parking costs? Are we talking about hundreds of CHFs per months here? Wow
It really depends on the location. In high-demand parts of high-demand cities it can vary from 200-300 to infinity (i.e. non-existent). But normally, we are talking about ~150 CHF for covered garage and <100 open-air parking spot.
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Old 03.03.2019, 00:45
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

I hear repeatedly that skiing can be pricey in Switzerland. Not sure what exactly 'pricey' means. According to my research, a day ski pass is ~50 CHF, and one can get to most resorts by train (which is free if you have a GA). Is my understanding correct? Then, this is not expensive comparing to the US and Canada, where you pay at least $70-80 + tax a day in a decent resort plus you have to pay for fuel to get there.
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Old 04.03.2019, 17:24
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

From your message, 55% of your savings come to about 3162 CAD.
This is about 2380 CHF.

From the monthly net you estimate in CHF ( between 7.6K to 8.1K ), I assume that your health insurance is already deducted but tax is not yet deducted.

If you were to deduct tax and health insurance, it a unlikely that you will save the CHF equivalent of what you were saving in Canada. In all cases, it will be very difficult that you can save 55% of about 8 K salary in Switzerland.

Below will be an estimate of what your expenses will be in Switzerland for a similar kind of very simple lifestyle you have stated in Canada:

Rent( 1BHK a little away from centre of Zurich ): 2K - 3 K
Groceries: 600 - 800 CHF
Restaurant: 200 - 400 CHF
Insurance: 500 - 600 CHF
Car insurance: 60 - 90 a month depending on the car with an assumption that you will go for an inexpensive car.
Other insurance, taxes such as Civil liability insurance, TV fees, Motorway tax etc.: 70 CHF a month

Internet, TV and Communication: 60 - 130 CHF
Electricity and Water: 80 - 120 CHF
Misc. unknown: 200 - 400 CHF

Your monthly expenses would range between 3800 CHF to 5610 CHF based on the above estimates. Hope this helps you.
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  #38  
Old 04.03.2019, 17:36
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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From your message, 55% of your savings come to about 3162 CAD.
This is about 2380 CHF.

From the monthly net you estimate in CHF ( between 7.6K to 8.1K ), I assume that your health insurance is already deducted but tax is not yet deducted.

If you were to deduct tax and health insurance, it a unlikely that you will save the CHF equivalent of what you were saving in Canada. In all cases, it will be very difficult that you can save 55% of about 8 K salary in Switzerland.

Below will be an estimate of what your expenses will be in Switzerland for a similar kind of very simple lifestyle you have stated in Canada:

Rent( 1BHK a little away from centre of Zurich ): 2K - 3 K
Groceries: 600 - 800 CHF
Restaurant: 200 - 400 CHF
Insurance: 500 - 600 CHF
Car insurance: 60 - 90 a month depending on the car with an assumption that you will go for an inexpensive car.
Other insurance, taxes such as Civil liability insurance, TV fees, Motorway tax etc.: 70 CHF a month

Internet, TV and Communication: 60 - 130 CHF
Electricity and Water: 80 - 120 CHF
Misc. unknown: 200 - 400 CHF

Your monthly expenses would range between 3800 CHF to 5610 CHF based on the above estimates. Hope this helps you.

Well, savings are possible as you do not need to pay 2-3 k if you live a bit outside of Zurich for example.

Not sure what insurance costs 500-600 CHF, I pay less for my insurances .
Also the amount for groceries is high. And how many times a month you go to a restaurant?


OP, there are families that live off that amount and happily so.


And if you are interested in budget meals that look and taste fantastic, check out the FB page from EastEnders. She does magical things with food!
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Old 04.03.2019, 19:11
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Re: Another cost of living thread, Canadian moving to Zurich

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Below will be an estimate of what your expenses will be in Switzerland for a similar kind of very simple lifestyle you have stated in Canada:

Rent( 1BHK a little away from centre of Zurich ): 2K - 3 K
Groceries: 600 - 800 CHF
Restaurant: 200 - 400 CHF
Insurance: 500 - 600 CHF
Car insurance: 60 - 90 a month depending on the car with an assumption that you will go for an inexpensive car.
Other insurance, taxes such as Civil liability insurance, TV fees, Motorway tax etc.: 70 CHF a month

Internet, TV and Communication: 60 - 130 CHF
Electricity and Water: 80 - 120 CHF
Misc. unknown: 200 - 400 CHF

Your monthly expenses would range between 3800 CHF to 5610 CHF based on the above estimates. Hope this helps you.
Most of your above numbers are for a rather upscale lifestyle and have nothing to do with what OP (seems to) be searching..

Especially the "big" numbers are all about double (!) what you can find/living on.
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