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  #141  
Old 25.02.2019, 13:59
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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I dislike the people who try and lift the safety bar up halfway up the mountain when I'm on the chair lift as well
No need to lift it up if you don't lower it in the first place!

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  #142  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:01
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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Can people please refrain from posting those country comparison charts on this forum in relevant threads
- for example those regarding income, divorce rates, smoking rates, murder, drug use etc) because it's become clear that they're frowned upon by Swiss and wannabe-Swiss unless they paint Switzerland in a particularly good light.

Seriously...
Seriously, they ALL paint Switzerland in a particularly good light.

Seriously...

Tom
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  #143  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:01
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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I think the trigger is in the comparison.
Why not just say << the (building) handicap laws are absurdly evasive in Switzerland and more should be done to protect that minority>> Full stop. ?

You are absolutely right about that. And not only the buildings but also the awareness of the handicapped. We had a ramp into our house for - several - people who live in wheel-chairs and tons of space and parking lots right in front of the house. Yet the maintenance people ALWAYS parked their van exactly at the end of the ramp, blocking it off. Even after I explained to them why that was not the thing to do (would you believe, you have to explain such a thing to people??!!).

Remembering Germany - just at the border to Switzerland and Munich and Frankfurt - it ain't better though.
So who cares about "other countries", it is not good enough here.

Comparison will probably always trigger "if you don't like it leave it". Isn't that the whole point of moving around in the world? That "here" is not like "there" and "there" is not like where I was last month? It is to me.

The tendency to "support" one's opinion by "it's better somewhere else" or - an other very popular one is "everybody else says so too" - is not a productive way to trigger changes. Imo.
I agree. But then, why be so overly sensitive to constructive criticism even if it's unfairly harsh? Why not have the higher moral ground, actually..nonchallantly agree that yes, there is alwtays some room for improvement. A bit of a complex? Or maybe a feeling that this country is already doing too much for those who don't show enough gratitude? (I agree, they do not.)

But holding a grudge or having some weird aftertaste after an honest discussion is just unconstructive. Saying go home...is just saying go home, a major cop out. A convo stopper. And disingenuous. Almost everyone knows that overall the conditions here are even incomparable.
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  #144  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:03
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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Walk into any Post Office they had seven windows open but only two customers in front of you. No queueing. Now you go in to see only one window open so you take a number, still no queueing.
We have queueing, not numbers, at ours, same at the pharmacy.

Tom
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  #145  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:08
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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Swiss people seem to have a problem with being offered whale meat.
I don't, I LOVE it!

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  #146  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:10
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

To the original complaint, the correct remark about the the other customers bad manner would have been:

Hey Du Tüpfi, füre drängle gaht gar nööd. Das isch immer no d Schwyz wo eine nach em andere dra chunt und keine dä König isch. Dä ungoordneti Schlachthuffe gilt numme im Gfecht gege d Habsburger. Also bewegt dis dicke Füdli as Ändi vo dä Schlange wies sich's ghört.
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  #147  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:19
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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Hey Du Tüpfi, füre drängle gaht gar nööd. Das isch immer no d Schwyz wo eine nach em andere dra chunt und keine dä König isch. Dä ungoordneti Schlachthuffe gilt numme im Gfecht gege d Habsburger. Also bewegt dis dicke Füdli as Ändi vo dä Schlange wies sich's ghört.

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  #148  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:28
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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No need to lift it up if you don't lower it in the first place!

Tom
Yeah, 'cos it's so much fun watching people slip off the chairs!

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  #149  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:34
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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C'est le ton qui fait la musique. See OP for one of the phrases that should be avoided.

But yes, critique from an Eastern European, as I'm assuming yacek is based on the nick, may provoke a different reaction than the same comment from a western European, let alone a Swiss. What's news?
Well, not really, though. Maybe the EEs do have more apreciative tone?

And even so, why be so sensitive to the tone when things are so damn stellar here..(it is!).That's what I don't get.

I think it's got to do with social strata. Some get outsourced to come here because they suit better what people here need. It may peeve off a lot of local applicants. But then we don't all fit the molds and stereotypes that maybe locals created in their minds. I was an EE and young looking hence an au-pair that has no right to say that some things can be even better.
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  #150  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:36
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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I get this line at me at least once a week, today was at coop.

I was waiting in a queue with about 10 other people, already a guy had skipped ahead of me, but I just blew it off.

A new till opened, the guy in front went and I went behind him, a woman complained that I should have let her go ahead (at least 5 more behind me at been there before her)

I said well where I come from the people waiting already go to the new queue.

Well you are in MY country and you should back to YOUR country she shouts. Of course no one says anything.

Just happens all the time, when I ask questions, don't speak french, is it just me? Does it happen to others? Does it bother you?
Not in Switzerland but happened with me few times in the UK. As an Indian Immigrant on valid skill gap visa and everything legal, it hurts, bothers but again compared to positive experiences, I tend to ignore it and forget it. Not all people are same. All cultures are different, norms all over the world are different. Some people are considered rude, but they are just realistic, some people are considered too polite but they are too shy. If you expect good, be ready to expect bad as well
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  #151  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:37
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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I think the trigger is in the comparison.
Why not just say << the (building) handicap laws are absurdly evasive in Switzerland and more should be done to protect that minority>> Full stop. ?
You speak as if you believe people who get offended at country comparisons are ruled by logical and rational thinking.

When discussing law and norms, you have to mention that there are countries in which the rules are different and better than the existing ones in Switzerland, and need to go as far as naming the country and the law itself.

You can't go "full stop". That's neither useful, nor helpful. The point of constructive criticism is to provide the useful base of study for improvement. That's how a discussion between adults should work. Exchange of points of views, comparative study of options. Not "here it's not good enough", full stop.

If you try that, you'll enrage the people for a whole other reason - daring to say it's not good enough without providing proof.

Acting like grown ups instead of touchy teenagers can be very useful in life.
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  #152  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:46
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

This "country of teenagers" is well taking care of folks that come from "countries of grownups".
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  #153  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:53
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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This "country of teenagers" is well taking care of folks that come from "countries of grownups".
Oh, how I love generalisations and paraphrasing.

No where have I said the whole country is made of angsty teenagers. People who get offended by the idea that a foreigner might mention something could be improved are so. That does not mean everyone is like that.

Very fortunately, because the bright ones that know how to take suggestions are moving forward and trying to change the laws. Started with fire prevention laws - who finally took some clues from the EU norms - and laws about handicap accessibility are in the making, hopefully to come out soon enough.

But sure, let's just put the foot down that currently everyone is already being taken care of, and there is absolutely no reason to move forward.
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  #154  
Old 25.02.2019, 14:58
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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When discussing law and norms, you have to mention that there are countries in which the rules are different and better than the existing ones in Switzerland.
Different? Sure.

Better? Maybe. Maybe not.

Tom
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  #155  
Old 25.02.2019, 15:01
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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No need to lift it up if you don't lower it in the first place!

Tom
You do write some dumb things but this is one of the dumbest.

Why not use safety equipment when fitted?

I suppose you turn off air-bags in a car when fitted too?
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  #156  
Old 25.02.2019, 15:01
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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You speak as if you believe people who get offended at country comparisons are ruled by logical and rational thinking.

When discussing law and norms, you have to mention that there are countries in which the rules are different and better than the existing ones in Switzerland, and need to go as far as naming the country and the law itself.

You can't go "full stop". That's neither useful, nor helpful. The point of constructive criticism is to provide the useful base of study for improvement. That's how a discussion between adults should work. Exchange of points of views, comparative study of options. Not "here it's not good enough", full stop.

If you try that, you'll enrage the people for a whole other reason - daring to say it's not good enough without providing proof.

Acting like grown ups instead of touchy teenagers can be very useful in life.
<<You speak as if you believe people who get offended at country comparisons are ruled by logical and rational thinking.>>
Yes of course I do. LOL.

<<Acting like grown ups instead of touchy teenagers can be very useful in life>>
So "my country is better than your's" a bit like "my daddy is stronger than your's" is grown up?

We probably have to agree to disagree.
I just know that when I want to trigger changes I do that by proposing them, explaining what could be achieved with them etc. I've been successful with the logical and rational thinking.

I personally believe that if I tell people "those do it better" or "most people agree with ..." I put them in a position of "you ain't got a clue". Once they're pushed in that corner they will never be open to my new ideas.
While I'm the rational and logical type I know very well not to neglect the emotional reaction to even basic things of most people if I want to reach my goal.

However, I don't understand this "my country is better than your's" while living in the other person's country. As a child and teenie I've seen it done in abundance by Germans and Swiss in Southamerica and didn't understand it then either.

PS: As MC said: "Go back to where you came from" is a conversation killer. So one should avoid the other one to be able to apply it at all.
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  #157  
Old 25.02.2019, 15:16
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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However, I don't understand this "my country is better than your's" while living in the other person's country.
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So "my country is better than your's" a bit like "my daddy is stronger than your's" is grown up?
The problem goes deeper than that, I think. Usually it's not even necessarily my country of origin that I am offering as a good example, but some people are unbelievably protective of the Swiss status quo. They can't accept that something might be learned or improved. They tell me to go back home as an insulting conversation killer, even if I didn't even mention Portugal at all.

This is all in a professional setting, so I would expect at a certain level that everyone would know that you never stop learning (and that you shouldn't be a xenophobic asshole, but that's a whole other department).

I also get the opposite - when talking to friends who studied with me that some rules are better in Switzerland, they can also go over protective of the Portuguese status quo.

As I mentioned before, this is not Swiss exclusive. I think because my sense of "home" is possibly very different from non-immigrants, and because I don't have an innate sense of nationalism, it looks sometimes borderline insane how people react. I think every country has room for improvement and we could learn a lot from each other.
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Old 25.02.2019, 15:33
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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Different? Sure.

Better? Maybe. Maybe not.

Tom
I agree with this. It is a result of anti-globalization, to suit particular local needs and priorities. Or purposely not suit those that are prioritized elsewhere. I know that the process to improve is there, but it gets held up by various things.

Most of my friends are local, with a few exceptions. They know about things that need to get improved...and are probably more vocal about it than everybody else.

I do know that the reasons why things are still lagging behind are quite intricate. Political, historical, financial, legal...etc.

Us rubbing it in, as if we were the geniuses that everybody was waiting for, feels probably like cr&#.

People might be just tired of saying: "Thank you for noticing, yeah, I know.". Coz they do. They have lived here longer than us. They know the changes happen, but influencing the pace is sometimes frustrating.
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Old 25.02.2019, 16:19
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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Oh, there aren't many European more west than us, and believe me, people looooove to tell me to go back to my country if I dare mention something that could use some improvement*.

[..]

* May I mention one time was because I told them the (building) handicap laws are absurdly evasive in Switzerland and more should be done to protect that minority like in other countries?
These are two different points. Arguing for improvement based on its own merit is distinct from using how it's done elsewhere as reason for change.

Your addendum uses the same argument from authority as OP. You're essentially saying "here" is backward (backwards?). As already explained that's rarely welcome.

Furthermore you can rationalise virtually everything using that rationale. You know, capital punishment, hacking off limbs for relativeley small crimes, controlling women as if they're imbeciles, slavery, leave people to rot in the streets, etc. pp. All that is done elsewhere or has been done elsewhen and is (according to your line of reasoning) therefor better.
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Old 25.02.2019, 16:23
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Re: Go back to your own country, anyone else hear this?

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...as Ändi vo dä Schlange wies sich's ghört.
You've just outed yourself as a Papierlischwizer. A real one would have ended with "wie's de Bruuch isch."
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