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  #81  
Old 08.04.2019, 18:13
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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While it may seem unfair, it's clear-ish on the amazon website that the price you see is usually the price you pay and seems to come about by the "computer saying no".



About VAT on Sales by Marketplace Sellers

Your order may include items from one or more Marketplace sellers. Since each of these sellers has different sales tax (or VAT) obligations, all Marketplace prices for orders shipped to delivery addresses within the EU are displayed as final prices indicated by the seller.

For questions about VAT on items purchased from all Marketplace Sellers, please contact the Seller directly.

For Amazon Business customers, you will see VAT exclusive prices for physical goods offers where the seller of record is Amazon and for physical goods offers where the seller has opted to use Amazon's Tax Calculation Service. We will display only VAT inclusive price for physical goods if the seller has not opted to use Amazon's Tax Calculation Service. For questions on VAT in relation to these products, please contact the respective Seller.

Thank you. Key sentence: "We will display only VAT inclusive price for physical goods if the seller has not opted to use Amazon's Tax Calculation Service."

Itís either too expensive, or too complicated, or they donít know about it. Donít underestimate the latter option.

I had to call eat.ch twice and send them two emails only because one of my favorite food delivery, who was also a newbie on eat.ch, removed those items from their menu I ordered and wanted to order again.

Many times, these companies either have no website or their run their business under a different name than the one they use on eat.ch. I even searched the place on Google map to get a phone number to reach them. The phone number didnít work. Most companies donít maintain their data on Google Map.

In turned out that the company wasnít aware that the items were removed from the order list. I guess they were visible in the admin interface but in a "paused" state or something like that. And people who donít spend half of their life in front of the computer donít know such details.

He told me, "Now I understand why people ordered only the Swiss Burger the last two weeks."

By the way, eat.ch didnít tell them even after I asked four times. I had to order something I donít eat only to tell them I canít order it anymore what I eat.

The same might apply to amazon.de tax calculation.

I consider it still a mistake of Amazon. They canít expect me to contact 50 or more sellers one by one. The first seller I contacted already sent me to Amazon. I can even understand them.
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  #82  
Old 08.04.2019, 18:47
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

Amazon say they can't keep up with their sellers' tax statuses so the final price includes VAT if they charge VAT (to EU countries) so it is quite unfair when the otherwise VAT amount is simply pocketed by the seller, but buyer beware and all that.


A local restaurant changed their menu a long time ago but not on eat.ch so I can order what I used to like on eat.ch but not in the restaurant. Not that it's at all relevant to this thread :-)
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  #83  
Old 08.04.2019, 19:07
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Amazon say they can't keep up with their sellers' tax statuses so the final price includes VAT if they charge VAT (to EU countries) so it is quite unfair when the otherwise VAT amount is simply pocketed by the seller, but buyer beware and all that.


A local restaurant changed their menu a long time ago but not on eat.ch so I can order what I used to like on eat.ch but not in the restaurant. Not that it's at all relevant to this thread :-)
Perhaps every price shown should be without VAT, such a system works well in the USA. Then tax added where applicable
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  #84  
Old 08.04.2019, 19:21
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Perhaps every price shown should be without VAT, such a system works well in the USA. Then tax added where applicable
A store aiming at private sales is not allowed to start showing prices including taxes only when the buyer has made it known from where he is. It must show the prices including VAT for the market it is targeting unless customer has set a different territory.

Law in a lot of countries demands prices to be shown including tax. It would require a lot of laws to be changed for this to work in Europe.
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  #85  
Old 08.04.2019, 19:32
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Amazon say they can't keep up with their sellers' tax statuses so the final price includes VAT if they charge VAT (to EU countries) so it is quite unfair when the otherwise VAT amount is simply pocketed by the seller, but buyer beware and all that.
Many times you don’t need to know the law to figure it out how it is because it’s often logical. When you want to act, you need to know it. That’s what I am trying to achieve. Although it’s only one thing I believe it’s incorrect or not legal. Another thing is that maybe many sellers didn’t do it on purpose. At least not in the beginning. They should have noticed it after a while though.


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A local restaurant changed their menu a long time ago but not on eat.ch so I can order what I used to like on eat.ch but not in the restaurant. Not that it's at all relevant to this thread :-)
There is a tale of an old woman who was going to die. Death came for her. She argued long that she understood she had to go but she needed one more day. Death agreed. The told Death that let’s make it sure we both remember the same way. Let’s write it on the wall. They wrote it on the wall "Tomorrow".

Next day Death came for her. She told Death, "look at the wall. It says, tomorrow. What are you doing here today?

Then it happened the same way every day.

(After a while, Death erased the writing, and told her, "Tomorrow will be the last tomorrow". Still, it has a happy ending.)
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  #86  
Old 08.04.2019, 19:40
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Perhaps every price shown should be without VAT, such a system works well in the USA. Then tax added where applicable

Ahh Nooooooo. I hate going into an American shop and seeing something priced at 19.99 and then having to pay 23.42 at the till. Or in a restaurant where the menu says 50 bucks, plus 3% this, and 5% that and then be expected to give a 20% tipon top. No way Jose. Letís stay civilised.
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  #87  
Old 08.04.2019, 19:45
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Perhaps every price shown should be without VAT, such a system works well in the USA. Then tax added where applicable
Maybe. Although the sales TAX differs from the VAT. It doesnít go through each part of the sale-chain.
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  #88  
Old 08.04.2019, 19:56
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Many times you donít need to know the law to figure it out how it is because itís often logical. When you want to act, you need to know it. Thatís what I am trying to achieve. Although itís only one thing I believe itís incorrect or not legal. Another thing is that maybe many sellers didnít do it on purpose. At least not in the beginning. They should have noticed it after a while though.




There is a tale of an old woman who was going to die. Death came for her. She argued long that she understood she had to go but she needed one more day. Death agreed. The told Death that letís make it sure we both remember the same way. Letís write it on the wall. They wrote it on the wall "Tomorrow".

Next day Death came for her. She told Death, "look at the wall. It says, tomorrow. What are you doing here today?

Then it happened the same way every day.

(After a while, Death erased the writing, and told her, "Tomorrow will be the last tomorrow". Still, it has a happy ending.)



Any chance we can say the same for this post maybe ?
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  #89  
Old 08.04.2019, 20:02
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Ahh Nooooooo. I hate going into an American shop and seeing something priced at 19.99 and then having to pay 23.42 at the till. Or in a restaurant where the menu says 50 bucks, plus 3% this, and 5% that and then be expected to give a 20% tipon top. No way Jose. Letís stay civilised.
I also wanted to write that I hate it. Last time it happened to me was yesterday when I extended an annual service.

The reason I didnít write it, in the end, was that I thought maybe I hate it because I got used to seeing the final price. Maybe, if I always saw net prices everywhere, it would be better that way.

Or maybe there should be no tax on sales.
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  #90  
Old 08.04.2019, 20:38
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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A store aiming at private sales is not allowed to start showing prices including taxes only when the buyer has made it known from where he is. It must show the prices including VAT for the market it is targeting unless customer has set a different territory.

Law in a lot of countries demands prices to be shown including tax. It would require a lot of laws to be changed for this to work in Europe.
I know the current system, it's a stupid law IMHO, people should understand how much tax they are paying every time they spend money, that was governments are under pressure to reduce taxation. I doubt any US state has 20% sales tax.
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Old 08.04.2019, 20:39
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Maybe. Although the sales TAX differs from the VAT. It doesnít go through each part of the sale-chain.
VAT does not go through each part of the sales chain, just the 'Value Added' hence Value Added Tax.
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  #92  
Old 08.04.2019, 20:50
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Any chance we can say the same for this post maybe ?
You mean, you want to come back to my post every day? Wow, thatís so sweet. It may be the best compliment Iíve received this week.
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  #93  
Old 08.04.2019, 20:53
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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VAT does not go through each part of the sales chain, just the 'Value Added' hence Value Added Tax.
You make something. I buy it. I pay you the VAT. Then I sell it. The person pays me the VAT. Then they sell it. The buyer pays the VAT.

During the process, every entity had to pay VAT. In the end, the end-user will pay it. The government gets it from you who are on the opposite side of the chain.

I’m not sure how it could go through the chain even more.
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Old 08.04.2019, 20:56
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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You make something. I buy it. I pay you the VAT. Then I sell it. The person pays me the VAT. Then they sell it. The buyer pays the VAT.

During the process, every entity had to pay VAT. In the end, the end-user will pay it. The government gets it from you who are on the opposite side of the chain.

Iím not sure how it could go through the chain even more.
Google VAT and see how it works....
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Old 08.04.2019, 20:56
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

Now I have at least five bills from five sellers. All have the same price as it would be in Germany. All state 0% VAT. Itís Amazon.
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Old 08.04.2019, 21:09
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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Google VAT and see how it works....
This is one of the most primitive "argument" types on the internet. When you donít know something, and you tell me to Google for it in general. Although, I can understand it because learning can be exhausting or painful for some.


http://www.helpwithhmrc.co.uk/index.php/vat/vat-chain

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...what-is-vat_en

http://www.economywatch.com/business...sales-tax.html

"To deal with this disadvantage, the same tax is charged to each member involved in the production of the goods and services. The implementation of the tax remains indifferent to the position of the member in the production cycle or its position with respect to the customers. "

Keywords: each, same, position, cycle.


"The VAT chain diagram below describes the following sales transactions"

Iíve been telling for a long time that all schools should be burned down to ashes.
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Old 08.04.2019, 21:14
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

This is legal. It's also the only way it can legally and feasibly work with third party sellers. If you don't like the price, the only thing you can do is not buying the product, I'm afraid.

This happens because if Amazon is not the direct seller, then they're just a mediator. Your deal is not with them, but with the third party seller. You just did the business through their website, you did not buy from them. They do not and cannot handle VAT in the name of another company. They pay the full price to the third party, and get a 'commission' for sealing the deal. Since they don't process your VAT at all, they cannot let it go if the product is exported.
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Old 08.04.2019, 21:15
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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You make something. I buy it. I pay you the VAT. Then I sell it. The person pays me the VAT. Then they sell it. The buyer pays the VAT.

During the process, every entity had to pay VAT. In the end, the end-user will pay it. The government gets it from you who are on the opposite side of the chain.

I’m not sure how it could go through the chain even more.
The VAT paid by companies gets offset on the sale, the only additional tax is on the added value, or refund the difference of VAT if you sell goods for less than you paid for them.
Only the final private customer pays the tax, or an exempt company such as Insurance company. Airline tickets are zero rated so although the airline pays VAT on goods purchased, then all the VAT is refunded to the Airline & none passed on to the traveller. Tax avoidance at it's best
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Old 08.04.2019, 21:26
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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It's also the only way it can legally and feasibly work with third party sellers.
1. Why would it be the only way? (In your view)

2. Why would it be the only way, considering Amazon has a system to calculate it, but the sellers seem not to use it


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This happens because if Amazon is not the direct seller, then they're just a mediator. Your deal is not with them, but with the third party seller. You just did the business through their website, you did not buy from them. They do not and cannot handle VAT in the name of another company. They pay the full price to the third party, and get a 'commission' for sealing the deal. Since they don't process your VAT at all, they cannot let it go if the product is exported.
I think you miss the point that many of the sellers display the correct price on their website. Their price is incorrect only on Amazon.

Which means, the seller has everything to do it right. Knowledge, infrastructure, and will.

If Amazon is only the mediator (which is true), and they can do it in the correct way on their own, why would they lose this ability (of doing it right) when the Amazon mediates?
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Old 08.04.2019, 21:49
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Re: 20% price increase because I live in Switzerland. Is it legal?

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The VAT paid by companies gets offset on the sale, the only additional tax is on the added value, or refund the difference of VAT if you sell goods for less than you paid for them.
Only the final private customer pays the tax, or an exempt company such as Insurance company. Airline tickets are zero rated so although the airline pays VAT on goods purchased, then all the VAT is refunded to the Airline & none passed on to the traveller. Tax avoidance at it's best
You should tell my last four accountants your theory of VAT. You can’t imagine how much free time they would earn.

Now I see that it might be easy to miss how it is if you’ve never run a business, and you focus on the value-added part.

Forget it for a moment. We will get back to it. Start with an example where the middle parties have neither loss nor profit.

Let’s say I am "person A". I create something out of the blue. Think of an intellectual product. I say it costs 1’000 CHF.

I sell it to person B. He pays 1’080 CHF.

As we agreed, the first example will be profit-free for the middle parties. That means person C buys it from person B for 1’080 CHF.


You are person D. You buy it from person C for 1’080 CHF.

The net price is 1’000 CHF. The VAT is the 80 CHF.

You paid the 80 CHF to person C. Person C paid the 80 CHF to person B. Person B paid the 80 CHF to me. And I, who had no expenses in this example (created out of the blue), have to pay 80 CHF to the government.

In the end, it will be person D who has to afford the 80 CHF. It will be the government who gets it. But every member had to pay it in the chain. It went through everyone.

There are various cases in the European countries when, for some reason, you don’t need to pay VAT, but it makes little sense to talk about such cases because then there is no VAT.

And there is the case when person B and person C want to make a profit. It’s realistic, isn’t it?

In that case, the 80 CHF VAT will still go through every one.

When person B sells the item for 10% more, they have to pay VAT for that part to the government. Maybe this is confusing for some. When this happens, person B also created (added) value out of the blue, for which there was no expense on the other side. The VAT for this part of the price doesn’t go through me because it wasn’t me who created it, but it goes through everyone else. It is still true that it goes through everyone, from person D to the creator of the value, who is person B. Person D pays it to person C. Person C pays it to person B. Person B pays it to the government.

If there is a profit, then it is not a single chain that has only one entry point and one exit point. You can imagine it as a group of chains of various lengths. Every part of the VAT will go through (be paid) from the end user to the "creator" of the value.

Also, many times, the chains of the lesser lengths represent a small fraction of the VAT. In many business areas, the profit of middlemen is only a few percentages of the price. In such cases, most of the total VAT goes through everyone.

The next step is when you understand that 100% of the VAT on the product went through everyone. The amount that didn’t go through everyone is not the VAT on the product. It’s the VAT of the "service". The service was that person B bought it for me, stored it, and sold it.
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