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Old 15.06.2019, 12:48
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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I managed a team of 8 men and 3 women, all doing the same jobs (their pay was the same), but it was the men that got promoted up and along where as women were rarely because they c/would not commit to 100% (make that 120%).

The solution? Kids in school 365/365 0730-1800. OK, give them Saturday and Sunday off.
They could not commit because their partners c/would not step back. The solution is to start thinking differently about work and availability. Why has it to be non-negotiable that a high profile, high responsibility job cannot be part-time or a position be shared?

What men tend to forget that the other side of the feminist medal is them getting the opportunity to see more of their kids and not work themselves into burnout.

Some interesting insights here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/up...sions.amp.html
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  #22  
Old 15.06.2019, 12:49
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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When all the feminists were protesting my wife was still in the tennis club coaching until 8pm and I was preparing the dinner after my work. Can it get more equal than that?
No, but my ex husband cited that as a reason for our divorce. He worked 9-5 Mon-Fri whereas I worked 12hr rotating shifts, and he actually wrote in the divorce petition that "because she spent so much time at work and worked unsociable hours, I often had to make my own dinner". I kid you not.
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  #23  
Old 15.06.2019, 13:09
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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No, but my ex husband cited that as a reason for our divorce. He worked 9-5 Mon-Fri whereas I worked 12hr rotating shifts, and he actually wrote in the divorce petition that "because she spent so much time at work and worked unsociable hours, I often had to make my own dinner". I kid you not.
What a foolish man to let your marriage go!
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Old 15.06.2019, 13:49
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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What a foolish man to let your marriage go!
Thanks but it was all a a cover for him having an affair with an 18yr old when he was 33, a relationship that lasted all of 5 weeks after I kicked him out. What shocked me was a court accepted that as 'unreasonable behaviour' grounds for divorce. At the time, my solicitor said that there's no way a court would accept that from a woman as grounds. C'est la Vie!

The lesson I learned was that, regardless of how evolved we believe we are, people still aren't legally and financially equal. It's a riddle that we're a long way from solving, but I believe we must strive to ensure that people are not made legally and financially vulnerable by situations which are wholly outside of their control. Financial equality in the workplace is just one piece of the jigsaw, and it works both ways.
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Old 15.06.2019, 15:21
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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I don't think it had to do with a demonstration. It was very localised and I saw the emergency helicopter leaving. The entire block where the Ferrari garage is was cordoned off and people were looking towards the railway line. (The exit of the Okihof)


It was major, so I'm guessing will be in the news eventually.
Probably another Tesla that didn‘t catch fire...
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  #26  
Old 15.06.2019, 19:03
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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It is a choice which parent takes on the responsibilities of looking after the children when the school system shuts down. But it is invariably the mother.
Assuming that there is a mother.

Tom
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Old 15.06.2019, 19:19
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Assuming that there is a mother.

Tom
There’s always a mother.
Whether she is around or not for whatever reason is a different matter. There are plenty of single parent families around where the parent is the father.
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Old 15.06.2019, 19:34
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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There’s always a mother.
Not if they are deceased.

Tom
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  #29  
Old 15.06.2019, 19:41
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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The lesson I learned was that, regardless of how evolved we believe we are, people still aren't legally and financially equal. It's a riddle that we're a long way from solving, but I believe we must strive to ensure that people are not made legally and financially vulnerable by situations which are wholly outside of their control. Financial equality in the workplace is just one piece of the jigsaw, and it works both ways.
What do you exactly mean by "people aren't legally and financially equal"?

People won't make the same money, if they don't work the same jobs. People won't work the same jobs, if they don't study the same things. But people can study the same things if they want.

Legally not equal, I agree. Many laws come into my mind that discriminate one half of the population, and no one cares. But as you say, "C'est la vie"
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Old 15.06.2019, 21:42
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

Why would anyone hire a man, if a woman will do the same job for 20% less?

Makes no sense.

Tom
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  #31  
Old 16.06.2019, 01:09
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Why would anyone hire a man, if a woman will do the same job for 20% less?
What if the women don't know that they're being paid 20% less than their male colleagues for the exact same job?
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Old 16.06.2019, 03:34
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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What if the women don't know that they're being paid 20% less than their male colleagues for the exact same job?
There is just no evidence for such a difference to be reality.

And Tom was asking why the man would get the job in the first place, if one could hire a woman for 20% less. So a woman not knowing what a man makes, doesn't answer his question.
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  #33  
Old 16.06.2019, 08:14
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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There is just no evidence for such a difference to be reality.

And Tom was asking why the man would get the job in the first place, if one could hire a woman for 20% less. So a woman not knowing what a man makes, doesn't answer his question.
Yes, there is plenty of evidence. Gender pay gap is well documented. Of course, the causes for wage differences are often structural but even for women with the same professional background, same circumstances they pay is significantly lower. Some stats here, if you dig more into the problem you'll find all the numbers relevant for your country.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...gap_statistics

Sometimes there are wage differences within a company, wage differences between local employees and foreign employees, how you collect all the data? It doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist.

And your question is easily answered - an employer offers you the salary they think you'll accept. (not valid for the state institutions of course)

Last edited by greenmount; 16.06.2019 at 08:36.
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Old 16.06.2019, 09:55
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

If I have two people with equal abilities and experience applying for a job, why would I ever hire the one who costs 25% more?

Tom
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Old 16.06.2019, 10:17
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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If I have two people with equal abilities and experience applying for a job, why would I ever hire the one who costs 25% more?

Tom
Because the one who costs 20% more isn’t going to be going on maternity leave or (usually) taking time off to look after sick kids etc etc.

Employers are prepared to pay more for what they consider to be less risk of disruption.
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  #36  
Old 16.06.2019, 10:44
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Yes, there is plenty of evidence. Gender pay gap is well documented. Of course, the causes for wage differences are often structural but even for women with the same professional background, same circumstances they pay is significantly lower. Some stats here, if you dig more into the problem you'll find all the numbers relevant for your country.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...gap_statistics

Sometimes there are wage differences within a company, wage differences between local employees and foreign employees, how you collect all the data? It doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist.

And your question is easily answered - an employer offers you the salary they think you'll accept. (not valid for the state institutions of course)
The wage gap just doesn't measure what you claims it does. The swiss study doesn't study what women get payed for exactly the same job as men do with exactly the same professional background and/or circumstances

If you did read the study, you will see that it doesn't use any data on professions. Salaries are compared within "professional groups". Those can be as wide as ranging from lawyers, pastors, and journalists to social workers and musicians, dancers and composers (all these 7 professions are in the ICSO-08 group 26). Also, the study does not look at the field someone got a degree or certification in. Qualification is solely evaluated by the highest type of degree (Sek, Matur, BSc, or MSc). Furthermore, experience is not taken into account either. It will be estimated based on the age and doesn't take into account how many years of relevant professional experience someone has. And there are many more limitations, those are just a few examples.

But even without taking any of those points into account the Swiss study finds that of the 20% you claimed, only 8% can't be explained. One can only wonder what would happen to that number, if they would/could at least take the field of study/degree and the relevant professional experience into account.
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Old 16.06.2019, 11:54
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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The wage gap just doesn't measure what you claims it does. The swiss study doesn't study what women get payed for exactly the same job as men do with exactly the same professional background and/or circumstances

If you did read the study, you will see that it doesn't use any data on professions. Salaries are compared within "professional groups". Those can be as wide as ranging from lawyers, pastors, and journalists to social workers and musicians, dancers and composers (all these 7 professions are in the ICSO-08 group 26). Also, the study does not look at the field someone got a degree or certification in. Qualification is solely evaluated by the highest type of degree (Sek, Matur, BSc, or MSc). Furthermore, experience is not taken into account either. It will be estimated based on the age and doesn't take into account how many years of relevant professional experience someone has. And there are many more limitations, those are just a few examples.

But even without taking any of those points into account the Swiss study finds that of the 20% you claimed, only 8% can't be explained. One can only wonder what would happen to that number, if they would/could at least take the field of study/degree and the relevant professional experience into account.
I said the gender gap can be due to various factors and a lower salary for the same type of work and background due to discrimination (the only possible explanation) is only one component. They so include this in the broader "gender pay gap" category, although the methodology used is not always complete. And it varies greatly between different countries.
In another study which took into consideration Germany, they talked about 6% that couldn't have been justified in any other way than through gender discrimination. Is it (in)significantly lower, should we make a fuss about it? Well, apparently 160 000 Swiss women (a number I saw on EF, could be bigger) thought the problem is real and it affects them. (one of the many other problems)

Just to be clear, I haven't been to this manifestation. But I think there are reasons for it, and I am pretty sure the vast majority of those women are not feminazis as someone tried to ridicule them on a different thread.
(well, when you stick with the end of the tail you get to see pictures with vulvas apparently...lucky you)
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  #38  
Old 16.06.2019, 12:04
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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I said the gender gap can be due to various factors and a lower salary for the same type of work and background due to discrimination (the only possible explanation) is only one component.
So there are other components - but the only possible explanation is discrimination? Again, the study doesn't take into account different education, different experience, or the actual jobs.

I don't have any issue with people walking, I do have issues if media, activists and politicians are using lies to deceive the public.
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  #39  
Old 16.06.2019, 12:23
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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What do you exactly mean by "people aren't legally and financially equal"?

People won't make the same money, if they don't work the same jobs. People won't work the same jobs, if they don't study the same things. But people can study the same things if they want.
Way back when I was a union rep in an environment where everyone got the correct hourly rate for their pay scale, I had my work cut out representing a couple of guys who were single parents and needed leave for child care issues, etc. That was back in the 80s and 90s, and men were definitely not treated the same in that regard. Men were also not treated the same as the women when it came to requiring flexible working hours and/or leave to care for elderly parents.

After that, I worked 10yrs for a company where pay was performance related, but it was also secret. It was a disciplinary offence to discuss your pay with colleagues. That policy came a cropper because we had a number of relationships within the company and partners talk. They quickly found out that they were being paid a few thousand differently when they were doing the exact same role with the exact same workload, attendence record, etc...

This all unravels when a partner dies or a couple divorce because the primary care giver throughout a relationship too often finds themselves on the back foot financially, which leads to an inability to properly represent themselves legally and fight their corner. It also unravels when workplace stereotypes dictate that a man who is the primary care giver is treated differently to female colleagues in the same position. It could be something as simple as being refused the opportunity to cut his working hours, or allow flexible working hours, to allow him to properly care for his family.

With more and more same sex partnerships where children are involved, I reckon we'll see a lot of these stereotypes and laws repeatedly challenged.
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Old 16.06.2019, 12:30
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Because the one who costs 20% more isn’t going to be going on maternity leave or (usually) taking time off to look after sick kids etc etc.
And thus works more hours.

Thus, it is NOT comparing like for like.

Also it's 25% more, or 20% less.

Tom
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