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Old 16.06.2019, 12:40
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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And thus works more hours.

Thus, it is NOT comparing like for like.

Also it's 25% more, or 20% less.

Tom
I like how you choose to selectively quote my post.

It it what the employers perceive to be a risk it is not necessarily going to be the case.
Many women work equally as many hours as men and do an equally good or even better job but some employers can’t see beyond the ‘potential’ disruptions that ‘may’ arise from those people being in possession of a uterus.
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  #42  
Old 16.06.2019, 12:57
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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I like how you choose to selectively quote my post.
To only reference the relevant parts.

Tom
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  #43  
Old 16.06.2019, 13:03
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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So there are other components - but the only possible explanation is discrimination? Again, the study doesn't take into account different education, different experience, or the actual jobs.

I don't have any issue with people walking, I do have issues if media, activists and politicians are using lies to deceive the public.
Lol, that wasn't what I meant. In one of the studies I read on gender pay gap they pinned only 6% on gender discrimination, the rest of the wage differences could have been explained through other factors. So maybe it's not 20% as some of the "activists" claim, but those cases of gender discrimination do exist. Due to an incomplete data collection and data analysis, we don't really know the real number.

You're pretty sure that women aren't discriminated. Have you tried talking with women who went to this manifestation? Were they all lured into it by vicious, ill-intentioned feminazis who manipulated studies and numbers? I wouldn't know, I merely disagreed with you on your claim that gender gap due to discrimination doesn't happen because there are no proofs.
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  #44  
Old 16.06.2019, 13:07
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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To only reference the relevant parts.

Tom
But you didn’t, you cherry picked the bits that suited your argument.
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  #45  
Old 16.06.2019, 13:20
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Lol, that wasn't what I meant. In one of the studies I read on gender pay gap they pinned only 6% on gender discrimination, the rest of the wage differences could have been explained through other factors. So maybe it's not 20% as some of the "activists" claim, but those cases of gender discrimination do exist. Due to an incomplete data collection and data analysis, we don't really know the real number.

You're pretty sure that women aren't discriminated. Have you tried talking with women who went to this manifestation? Were they all lured into it by vicious, ill-meant feminazis who manipulated studies and numbers? I wouldn't know, I merely disagreed with you on your claim that gender gap due to discrimination doesn't happen because there are no proofs.
Sure let's pretend that you didn't say for exactly the same job/same professional background/same circumstances. If you claim something exists it's up to you to proof the existence, and not up to me to disprove it. Still, I presented you plenty of reasons why your numbers are off.

Anyways, you clearly don't wanna have an openminded conversation about this topic. So no need to continue this.

PS: just checked your example from Germany - and surprise, surprise they didn't take actual experience into account either.
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  #46  
Old 16.06.2019, 13:26
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Sure let's pretend that you didn't say for exactly the same job/same professional background/same circumstances. If you claim something exists it's up to you to proof the existence, and not up to me to disprove it. Still, I presented you plenty of reasons why your numbers are off.

Anyways, you clearly don't wanna have an openminded conversation about this topic. So no need to continue this.
Well, to me it seems it's exactly the opposite, but let's leave it at that.

You shouldn't try to convince me of anything, you should try to convince those 160 000 women that there is no reason for their "show".
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  #47  
Old 16.06.2019, 13:27
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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With more and more same sex partnerships where children are involved, I reckon we'll see a lot of these stereotypes and laws repeatedly challenged.
Thanks for sharing! I wish a few more laws and constitutional articles would be challenged, maybe in my next life
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  #48  
Old 16.06.2019, 13:30
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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you should try to convince those 160 000 women that there is no reason for their "show".
Which is not what I said at any point. But never mind, you like to live in your own reality where words can mean whatever you decide what they mean.
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  #49  
Old 16.06.2019, 13:34
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Which is not what I said at any point. But never mind, you like to live in your own reality where words can mean whatever you decide what they mean.
Probably in the same reality where wage differences have never to do with gender discrimination because there is no evidence on that.


Done?

Edit. There are various sources online, arguing about who read what ad nauseam is useless.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/unequal...-wide/44723746

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The pay gap between men and women in Switzerland has increased slightly, amounting to hundreds of francs per month on average.
Men earned 19.6% more pay than female colleagues in 2016, compared to a 19.5% difference in 2012. While some of this gap can be explained by length of service, additional qualifications and the like, in more than four out of ten cases researchers could see no reason why women are paid less.
I rest my case.

Last edited by greenmount; 16.06.2019 at 14:15.
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Old 16.06.2019, 19:50
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Lol, that wasn't what I meant. In one of the studies I read on gender pay gap they pinned only 6% on gender discrimination, the rest of the wage differences could have been explained through other factors. So maybe it's not 20% as some of the "activists" claim, but those cases of gender discrimination do exist. Due to an incomplete data collection and data analysis, we don't really know the real number.
Your're effectively saying "I don't know why, therefor discrimination". That's like saying "I don't know what that is in the sky, therefor it must be a UFO". Both should expect to get challenged.

The main thing is that the more the claimed difference is looked at the smaller the unexplained part gets. You may have this recently published study in mind (article in German by Tagesanzeiger)with its finding that the unexplained difference (which is not the same as saying it's due to discrimination) is 4-5%.

The neat thing about that study is that it's on job beginners, that removes a lot of the fuzziness created by age, experience and other factors. Unfortunately that comes at the cost of being based on a relatively small cohort.

Nonetheless at least two rather obvious factors aren't considered. One being that men in CH commute 20% longer distances. As a result the reachable area is more than 40% larger, as well as the number of jobs in reach as a consequence. Obviously that makes getting a well-paid job considerably easier. This alone may easily cause a significant difference.

The other factor is that working part-time and doing overtime are assumed to result in a linear reduction/increase in justified salary. For example, working 80% is assumed to result in a salary reduction of 20%. However that makes no economic sense because fixed costs are just that, they're mostly the same whether someone works 80%, 100%, or 120%.

As a consequence not working 100% should be expected to have a dispropotionate effect, both on the upside and the downside.
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  #51  
Old 16.06.2019, 22:22
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

So what was happening in Zug on the 14/06/19 folks?
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  #52  
Old 17.06.2019, 08:28
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Your're effectively saying "I don't know why, therefor discrimination". That's like saying "I don't know what that is in the sky, therefor it must be a UFO". Both should expect to get challenged.

The main thing is that the more the claimed difference is looked at the smaller the unexplained part gets. You may have this recently published study in mind (article in German by Tagesanzeiger)with its finding that the unexplained difference (which is not the same as saying it's due to discrimination) is 4-5%.

The neat thing about that study is that it's on job beginners, that removes a lot of the fuzziness created by age, experience and other factors. Unfortunately that comes at the cost of being based on a relatively small cohort.

Nonetheless at least two rather obvious factors aren't considered. One being that men in CH commute 20% longer distances. As a result the reachable area is more than 40% larger, as well as the number of jobs in reach as a consequence. Obviously that makes getting a well-paid job considerably easier. This alone may easily cause a significant difference.

The other factor is that working part-time and doing overtime are assumed to result in a linear reduction/increase in justified salary. For example, working 80% is assumed to result in a salary reduction of 20%. However that makes no economic sense because fixed costs are just that, they're mostly the same whether someone works 80%, 100%, or 120%.

As a consequence not working 100% should be expected to have a dispropotionate effect, both on the upside and the downside.
OMG, we really can't have this discussion, can we. All those objectives factors that could diminish someone's wage were taken into consideration in various studies, it wasn't me who pinned the rest of the cases on the gender discrimination. This idea appeared in various studies. They performed not only quantitative but also qualitative analyses.

I specifically told the other user who "blocked me" (lol) to look further into gender pay gap studies (that link was only an example, and unfortunately this is not only a "Swiss" problem, it's popping up even in Germany, UK etc.) because this is where the discrimination cases are explained. Gender discrimination appears there, I didn't said anything that wasn't said by people who are doing research on this theme. I explained in a previous post that even if wage differences can be due to reasonable factors, a percentage of them are due to gender discrimination. This explanation comes from researches, not from me.

I am sorry, but this conversation is over. You can block me too, thank you very much.

Last edited by greenmount; 17.06.2019 at 08:39.
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  #53  
Old 17.06.2019, 08:33
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

First time in my EF history that I agree with Greenmount!
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Old 17.06.2019, 08:41
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

lol, whatever

Well, now that got me worried!

I might review "scipio" and URS MAX's comments...

Jokes aside, it's really unimportant who agrees with whom. Some people take this forum way too seriously.
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Old 17.06.2019, 09:00
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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So what was happening in Zug on the 14/06/19 folks?

I have been 'laying low' all weekend as I honestly thought the police had turned up to arrest me in Zug on Friday afternoon. I was at the Okihof where, according to my colleagues, I was committing a major crime by depositing recycling from a different kanton (I work in ZG but live elsewhere in CH). I nearly died when suddenly they shut the Okihof exit and there were police sirens going off everywhere :-)
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Old 17.06.2019, 22:25
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

Instead of arguing, come to Scotland the Great Leveller and see for yourselves: men and women, we all get crap pays, we all die before retirement age because of our poor diet and we all wear skirts!
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Old 18.06.2019, 03:59
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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Your're effectively saying "I don't know why, therefor discrimination". That's like saying "I don't know what that is in the sky, therefor it must be a UFO". Both should expect to get challenged.

The main thing is that the more the claimed difference is looked at the smaller the unexplained part gets. You may have this recently published study in mind (article in German by Tagesanzeiger)with its finding that the unexplained difference (which is not the same as saying it's due to discrimination) is 4-5%.
Very interesting study, thanks for sharing that one. The link to the actual study can be found here, and the supporting file here.

One should point out that the goal of the study was to determine if the wage gap is solely a result of different progression of wages after formation of a family:
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Our evidence does not support the idea that the gender wage gap is solely explained by family formation [...]. At the bottom line, when using two different panel datasets of young workers in Switzerland, we find a residual wage gap of 3–6 per cent in favour of men.
However, as you pointed out there are some limitations. Most notably, just like the BASS study of the federal statistical office, the study you linked to, does not compare the same occupation within the same company. What the study essentially does, is to compare wages within a occupational group in a whole industrial sector. In this specific study all individuals are categorized into 10 different occupational groups and 19 different sectors (see page 5 in the SI). Let's again look at an example, e.g. "MAJOR GROUP 2: PROFESSIONALS":

meteorologists, chemists, architects, dentists, pharmacists, all sorts of teachers, accountants, lawyers, sculptors, composers, dancers, religious professionals, and many more.

The full list can be found here, the study only looks at "major groups", and doesn't look at the various subcategories. Just to compare the BASS study looks at 48 professional groups and 23 different industrial sectors (so it looks at the double-digit job classes in the same file).

Last edited by scipio; 18.06.2019 at 04:58.
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Old 18.06.2019, 11:30
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

so what was happening in Zug 14/06/19 ? I saw the emergency Helicopter taking off from the train tracks at around 17:00 and a lot of emergency vehicles. This was just between the railway tracks and the gym I think just where the platforms start coming in from Zurich
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Old 18.06.2019, 14:43
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Re: Anyone know what is happening in Zug? 14/06/19

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so what was happening in Zug 14/06/19 ? I saw the emergency Helicopter taking off from the train tracks at around 17:00 and a lot of emergency vehicles. This was just between the railway tracks and the gym I think just where the platforms start coming in from Zurich
OMG, thank you for bringing this back!! I see that one of the platform entrances, at the underpass, has been blocked off.
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