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Old 24.08.2019, 00:52
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Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Quite uncommon if not unheard of.. yes thats true.. I was one of the few lucky(read unlucky) ones to have been cheated on Tutti. I have no complaints with the website as such, although I believe a stricter control (for e.g. address validation as in Ricardo) might be beneficial.

The guy posing as seller managed to convince me to make a bank transaction to his account in lieu of one of the product he was selling. He shared his id card, name, address, bank details and I had no reason to believe he was taking me for a ride.
Long story short, the seller stopped all communication after a couple of days of bank transaction. My bank sent me a letter asking me to call them up as they suspected a fraud transaction (I wonder why they didnt use pigeon) and told me that they have requested the money back from the beneficiary bank which might take more than 3 weeks.
I filed a cyber crime online complaint just to keep it on record. I received a letter recently from a different canton police(not sure who filed it, may be the banks) mentioning that they have filed a police complaint on my behalf and want me to respond on three options they have provided (attached). Since the form is in german and is more legal in nature, it is difficult to figure out the best option.
what I understood is : 1. I can raise a complaint but decide the state to fight it out. I have no claim to compensation. 2nd option I can claim for compensation and would retain the right to the proceeding and the third is to renounce any charges.
My question is : With the bank also trying to recover the money(although they just mentioned that they are "trying") does it make sense to demand the compensation from state? What happens if i receive money from both the channel? If I select the 2nd option, do I have to travel to this canton every time they ask me to come over? Do I also have to pay for any additional services to the government. I will be devastated to figure out if the services will cost me more than the money I have lost. In switzerland Its not too surprising if for recovering a lost money, per se SFr 10, I need to shell out Sfr 50 for lawyer/travelling charges etc.
Given that I have to visit the immigration every year to extend my visa, does such kind of police cases (or entry in register) also have some impact. In this case does option 3 make more sense where I understand i dont press any charges and forget the money ever existed in my account?
With all the veterans and legends I am pretty sure I can expect some advices which can help me decide on the options.
Many thanks in advance and apologies for the long post

..\\Cupid
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Old 24.08.2019, 01:41
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Oh, I'm sorry you had that bad experience.

Before you take your decision about A, B or C, you might take a moment to consider how great your financial loss is (apart from the frustration, hurt, anger, etc.) and how you will react if none of this can ever be recovered. Getting back nothing at all is the worst case financially, and in terms of justice, but it could possibly be the less-worse case emotionally, and in terms of an investment of your time.

This kind of crime is not one that the Swiss government would pursue if no-one complained about it (as opposed to more serious crimes like rape or murder) and so the questionnaire is asking you: Do you really even want to bother?


If you choose option A, it means that you do want the police to investigate, and that if they find the person you do want them to charge them and for them to be prosecuted and punished, but that you forego any right to make a civil claim against the fraudster, to get your money back, or to get compensation for the loss and frustration, etc. that you have suffered as a result of this matter. Option A is chosen when the victim does want to see justice done, if at all possible, in that the perpetrator will, if found guilty, be prosecuted, but the victim doesn't want to get involved in the whole procedure.

If you choose option A, you will be informed, some months down the line, about what the police have done, and whether the State Prosecutor has been able to persue the case, or had to dismiss it for lack of evidence or lack of identity of the perpetrator of the crime.


If you choose option B, then you are stating that you wish to participate in the procedures.
  1. The negative of that is exactly what you already wrote, namely that it will cost you time and effort.
  2. There is a worse disadvantage, though: if the seller turns out to be innocent (let's just say, for example, because it turns out that it was all just a banking error, not more, or because he was unconscious in hospital), you may then end up having to pay for some part of the procedings, for your having wrongfully accused the person.
  3. The worst version of this is that the accused can claim that you were maliciously damaging his reputation and want compensation from you.
This can cost you procedurally, in time and in the strain of having an ongoing matter on your shoulders for the next few months to a year.


Option B can be worth choosing if the sum that you have lost is great (so that those fees of the procedure pale into insignificance by comparison), and if there is a high chance that the prosecutor will be able to identify and charge the person, and the evidence is very good, such that a judge is very likely to find the person guilty. If that happens, and you have chosen option B, you will, after the criminal procedings, have the right to claim damages and possibly compensation from the perpetrator. Do bear in mind, though, that such compensation is seldom very high, in Switzerland.


If you choose option C, it means you are deciding writing off the loss, and walking away, and are withdrawing your charge, and the file will be closed.
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Old 24.08.2019, 06:55
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

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Quite uncommon if not unheard of.. yes thats true.. I was one of the few lucky(read unlucky) ones to have been cheated on Tutti. I have no complaints with the website as such, although I believe a stricter control (for e.g. address validation as in Ricardo) might be beneficial.

The guy posing as seller managed to convince me to make a bank transaction to his account in lieu of one of the product he was selling. He shared his id card, name, address, bank details and I had no reason to believe he was taking me for a ride.
Long story short, the seller stopped all communication after a couple of days of bank transaction. My bank sent me a letter asking me to call them up as they suspected a fraud transaction (I wonder why they didnt use pigeon) and told me that they have requested the money back from the beneficiary bank which might take more than 3 weeks.
I filed a cyber crime online complaint just to keep it on record. I received a letter recently from a different canton police(not sure who filed it, may be the banks) mentioning that they have filed a police complaint on my behalf and want me to respond on three options they have provided (attached). Since the form is in german and is more legal in nature, it is difficult to figure out the best option.
what I understood is : 1. I can raise a complaint but decide the state to fight it out. I have no claim to compensation. 2nd option I can claim for compensation and would retain the right to the proceeding and the third is to renounce any charges.
My question is : With the bank also trying to recover the money(although they just mentioned that they are "trying") does it make sense to demand the compensation from state? What happens if i receive money from both the channel? If I select the 2nd option, do I have to travel to this canton every time they ask me to come over? Do I also have to pay for any additional services to the government. I will be devastated to figure out if the services will cost me more than the money I have lost. In switzerland Its not too surprising if for recovering a lost money, per se SFr 10, I need to shell out Sfr 50 for lawyer/travelling charges etc.
Given that I have to visit the immigration every year to extend my visa, does such kind of police cases (or entry in register) also have some impact. In this case does option 3 make more sense where I understand i dont press any charges and forget the money ever existed in my account?
With all the veterans and legends I am pretty sure I can expect some advices which can help me decide on the options.
Many thanks in advance and apologies for the long post

..\\Cupid
How much money is involved here?
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Old 24.08.2019, 07:14
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Have you tried to invoice the person for the money? If no response to that you can start a debt collection enforcement procedure (Betreibung) against them for very little money, providing you have their place of residence and they are legally resident in Switzerland. And for the ongoing Betreibung procedure in another canton you are not legally obliged to attend an eventual hearing, although you can.
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Old 24.08.2019, 08:05
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

A Big thanks for the detailed explanation.
As I can understand from your post you are leaning towards option A and B. May you also help me in understanding whether the negatives you have mentioned for option B wherein the accused can sue me back or I end up paying for the procedure are also true if I go for option A or I am nowhere in picture. Also in case I choose either A or B I understand I will be on records. Will that have a remote impact on my visa decision which might go over for renewal in Jan. The money in question is 200 Sfr.. not too big to cry my heart out, not too small to forget with a sip of coffee. However not a big loss that I cannot forego.


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Oh, I'm sorry you had that bad experience.

Before you take your decision about A, B or C, you might take a moment to consider how great your financial loss is (apart from the frustration, hurt, anger, etc.) and how you will react if none of this can ever be recovered. Getting back nothing at all is the worst case financially, and in terms of justice, but it could possibly be the less-worse case emotionally, and in terms of an investment of your time.

This kind of crime is not one that the Swiss government would pursue if no-one complained about it (as opposed to more serious crimes like rape or murder) and so the questionnaire is asking you: Do you really even want to bother?


If you choose option A, it means that you do want the police to investigate, and that if they find the person you do want them to charge them and for them to be prosecuted and punished, but that you forego any right to make a civil claim against the fraudster, to get your money back, or to get compensation for the loss and frustration, etc. that you have suffered as a result of this matter. Option A is chosen when the victim does want to see justice done, if at all possible, in that the perpetrator will, if found guilty, be prosecuted, but the victim doesn't want to get involved in the whole procedure.

If you choose option A, you will be informed, some months down the line, about what the police have done, and whether the State Prosecutor has been able to persue the case, or had to dismiss it for lack of evidence or lack of identity of the perpetrator of the crime.


If you choose option B, then you are stating that you wish to participate in the procedures.
  1. The negative of that is exactly what you already wrote, namely that it will cost you time and effort.
  2. There is a worse disadvantage, though: if the seller turns out to be innocent (let's just say, for example, because it turns out that it was all just a banking error, not more, or because he was unconscious in hospital), you may then end up having to pay for some part of the procedings, for your having wrongfully accused the person.
  3. The worst version of this is that the accused can claim that you were maliciously damaging his reputation and want compensation from you.
This can cost you procedurally, in time and in the strain of having an ongoing matter on your shoulders for the next few months to a year.


Option B can be worth choosing if the sum that you have lost is great (so that those fees of the procedure pale into insignificance by comparison), and if there is a high chance that the prosecutor will be able to identify and charge the person, and the evidence is very good, such that a judge is very likely to find the person guilty. If that happens, and you have chosen option B, you will, after the criminal procedings, have the right to claim damages and possibly compensation from the perpetrator. Do bear in mind, though, that such compensation is seldom very high, in Switzerland.


If you choose option C, it means you are deciding writing off the loss, and walking away, and are withdrawing your charge, and the file will be closed.
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Old 24.08.2019, 08:07
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Sfr 200. Not a big enough loss to motivate me to start looking for a better job to cover up for that neither a small enough amount to forego in a blink of an eye.
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How much money is involved here?
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Old 24.08.2019, 08:09
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Go to his home address if he has a real one. Confront him face to face. No pussy footing around here. Some people only understand a good work over!
That's the way we do things in Australia
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Old 24.08.2019, 08:12
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Not sure whether I can do that. What reason shall I mention? “I was dumb enough to transfer money to your account and now I want it back” the seller can be an easy case of identity theft as a quick search in google and Facebook takes me to the profile page where apparently this “seller” works in police himself. Do not want to cough up a 1000Sfr for damaging someone’s reputation.
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Have you tried to invoice the person for the money? If no response to that you can start a debt collection enforcement procedure (Betreibung) against them for very little money, providing you have their place of residence and they are legally resident in Switzerland. And for the ongoing Betreibung procedure in another canton you are not legally obliged to attend an eventual hearing, although you can.
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Old 24.08.2019, 08:20
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

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Not sure whether I can do that. What reason shall I mention? “I was dumb enough to transfer money to your account and now I want it back” the seller can be an easy case of identity theft as a quick search in google and Facebook takes me to the profile page where apparently this “seller” works in police himself. Do not want to cough up a 1000Sfr for damaging someone’s reputation.
And do you have a home address and telephone number of the seller? One has to give a telephone number with Tutti to register.

How can you say you were "dumb enough to transfer money to your account"? Tutti works like that. One pays for the goods first . Its normal.Got nothing to do with being dumb.

Why did the bank suspect fraud?

Last edited by omtatsat; 24.08.2019 at 08:39.
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Old 24.08.2019, 08:54
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

https://www.maketecheasier.com/paypa...fter-delivery/
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Old 24.08.2019, 10:11
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Same scammer ? My son was scammed about 200chf for a computer part. He's also lodged a police form. Send me a PM. It might be the same scammer. My husband and son can help you with the german...
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Old 24.08.2019, 10:16
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Just pick option A, you want the police to take this up into their registers and it can and should be used if they ever find the person. If they ever find him you'll be informed of this, in the meanwhile you have to do nothing besides most likely kissing your 200,- goodbye.
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Old 24.08.2019, 10:33
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

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The guy posing as seller managed to convince me to make a bank transaction to his account in lieu of one of the product he was selling. He shared his id card, name, address, bank details and I had no reason to believe he was taking me for a ride.
..\\Cupid
I am sorry about what happen to you.
Could you be clear on how this happened so others can avoid doing the same mistake?
Did you just do a bank transfer and you never received the goods?
I understand nothing happened to your bank account after that.
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Old 24.08.2019, 10:34
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Yes, that's exactly. Then the seller claims to have sent the items, but has no proof...and then they stop communicating...
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Old 24.08.2019, 17:40
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

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Not sure whether I can do that. What reason shall I mention? “I was dumb enough to transfer money to your account and now I want it back” the seller can be an easy case of identity theft as a quick search in google and Facebook takes me to the profile page where apparently this “seller” works in police himself. Do not want to cough up a 1000Sfr for damaging someone’s reputation.
You do not need a specific reason. You are able to indicate 'money owed from transfer' on an invoice you send to them. Then at the Betreibung stage you can mention the exact same thing - and mention that you invoiced them on a said date for the amount outstanding, plus postage fees, plus the cost of the Betreibung itself.
You only need to show proof of the transfer if the Betreibung is objected to AND if you decide to take it further by appealing to the local judge.

You have 5 years to invoice them for the amount owed and start off a Betreibung.
If the Betreibung is objected to, you have one year from the date of the objection to decide if you want to take it further.
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Old 24.08.2019, 17:58
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

the criminal is probably sitting in Rumania or Albania happy with himself. Little to no chance of getting back the money. Its a learning experience!
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Old 24.08.2019, 18:49
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

It seems to me a lot of this hangs on whether the information you have from the ID-Card is real or not. Do you, or do the police, know that, yet?
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Old 25.08.2019, 00:31
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

I am overwhelmed by all the responses. Sorry if I m am a bit slow in responding. I am traveling and do not have much option to connect to the world. To answer your question, I am not sure why the bank suspected fraud but I believe they have previous complaints against the account.
Honestly this incident left me feeling betrayed. I always felt proud to be in a country where trust came first. I am regular buyer/seller on ricardo and tutti and there has been instances where the sellers have left their home open to collect item and leave back money. Now with new lessons learnt I usually avoid responding to items which are posted with address where pickup is not possible
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And do you have a home address and telephone number of the seller? One has to give a telephone number with Tutti to register.

How can you say you were "dumb enough to transfer money to your account"? Tutti works like that. One pays for the goods first . Its normal.Got nothing to do with being dumb.

Why did the bank suspect fraud?
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Old 25.08.2019, 00:36
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

Sent you a pm
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Same scammer ? My son was scammed about 200chf for a computer part. He's also lodged a police form. Send me a PM. It might be the same scammer. My husband and son can help you with the german...
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Old 25.08.2019, 00:44
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Re: Fraud on Tutti - need advice with Police form

One lesson learnt from this is that I do not fall for something which is too good to be true. Secondly I now look for the location for pickup. The location is usually somewhere in the mountains or some areas where anyone would try to avoid. Third: if the name of the seller and then future correspondence persons name are different, it can also be a fake..
Fourth: I tried reaching out for the same product by asking my friend to ask for it. Each time they use different emails.
Fifth: the scammers very easily share their id with you. Normal seller are usually hesitant as its personal data. So I decided to avoid if they start sharing bank address and Id without even asking for it. Hope this helps and someone else does not fall for it.
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I am sorry about what happen to you.
Could you be clear on how this happened so others can avoid doing the same mistake?
Did you just do a bank transfer and you never received the goods?
I understand nothing happened to your bank account after that.
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