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  #121  
Old 10.10.2019, 10:57
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Can you elaborate more on this, what are the main obstacles for working couples and how do people get around it if both want to pursue a career and have children.
3. Schools close at noon and expect children to have lunch at home. There is a whole load of assumptions on which this decision is based, which are all false for working couples. (People who have kids can make it more precise)

4. People are encouraged (even by the high government officials), to live close to where they live, in order to remove the commuting burden and make trains less crowded. Logical, no? Apartment from the fact that this enforces and worsens the current accommodation crisis in big cities (where corporations are naturally located), such a mindset seems to totally ignore the couples who work in two different locations but, if it doesn't seem weird to the masterminds, want to live together.

The feeling of being ignored by the decision-makers is pretty painful and sad...

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  #122  
Old 10.10.2019, 11:16
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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3. Schools close at noon and expect children to have lunch at home. There is a whole load of assumptions on which this decision is based, which are all false for working couples.
No longer the case, around here at least. All local Gemeinde have some lunch provision now.
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  #123  
Old 10.10.2019, 11:17
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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No longer the case, around here at least. All local Gemeinde have some lunch provision now.
Same in Kanton Luzern. Schools have an after-school club too here until 6.00pm
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  #124  
Old 10.10.2019, 23:22
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

I think there are huge benefits within families and for society as a whole when one parents stays home to raise their kids (which is why I chose that path for myself), so I’d say I’m in favor of the Swiss system. I much prefer a system that encourages the traditional family dynamic to the way it is here in the states, where stay-at-home moms are almost frowned upon for not being ambitious enough to juggle both career and kids and instead focus 100% on their families. Of course everyone has different opinions and options available to them. I feel lucky that I’m able to raise my family the way I see fit. To each their own.


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1. The tax systems the world over give you a financial advantage when you get married. In Switzerland do you get a financial penalty. It makes less sense for both partners to work as the tax rate is a lot higher than for unmarried folks.

2. The cost of childcare. I know couples where most of the womans salary went to childcare for her two pre-school kids. Most countries make an effort to provide affordable childcare, Switzerland seems to on purpose do the opposite… so women decide to stay at home.

Before we are getting all too feminist about this: That traditional role model is these days not really enforced by some ruling men… there is an open and direct democracy… so we can prove that it is mostly Swiss women who vote for the system to favour housewives over working women.
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  #125  
Old 10.10.2019, 23:30
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

How do they encourage #4? Benefits for living close or sanctions for living far?

Feeling ignored by decision-makers is unfortunately a problem here, too. I hoped it was not that way in a direct democracy. Sorry to hear that.


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3. Schools close at noon and expect children to have lunch at home. There is a whole load of assumptions on which this decision is based, which are all false for working couples. (People who have kids can make it more precise)

4. People are encouraged (even by the high government officials), to live close to where they live, in order to remove the commuting burden and make trains less crowded. Logical, no? Apartment from the fact that this enforces and worsens the current accommodation crisis in big cities (where corporations are naturally located), such a mindset seems to totally ignore the couples who work in two different locations but, if it doesn't seem weird to the masterminds, want to live together.

The feeling of being ignored by the decision-makers is pretty painful and sad...
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  #126  
Old 11.10.2019, 00:30
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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I think there are huge benefits within families and for society as a whole when one parents stays home to raise their kids (which is why I chose that path for myself), so I’d say I’m in favor of the Swiss system. I much prefer a system that encourages the traditional family dynamic to the way it is here in the states, where stay-at-home moms are almost frowned upon for not being ambitious enough to juggle both career and kids and instead focus 100% on their families. Of course everyone has different opinions and options available to them. I feel lucky that I’m able to raise my family the way I see fit. To each their own.
Personally, I am for a.system that allows for choice... there are definitely many benefits of having one full time parent, and the decision for women or men to stay home and raise their children should not be frowned upon - but on the same.token, the decision for both parents to work full time should not be frowned upon or penalized. People, couples should be able to have choice and a system that supports either choice is preferable in my opinion.
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  #127  
Old 11.10.2019, 02:11
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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2. The cost of childcare. I know couples where most of the womans salary went to childcare for her two pre-school kids. Most countries make an effort to provide affordable childcare, Switzerland seems to on purpose do the opposite… so women decide to stay at home.
Many families now split their working time and their home/child-care time, i.e. both parents work, but both part-time.

Whereas a generation ago fathers went along with this traditional division of their wives staying at home while they were away from home - and their children - all day Monday to Friday, nowadays many fathers are interested in their participation in their children's days and weeks, and they are now much more inclined to assert their right to spend active parenting time, including everyday, ordinary time, with their children. Such fathers are no longer content to limit their parenting to buying an ice-cream on Saturday afternoons.
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  #128  
Old 11.10.2019, 02:16
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Personally, I am for a.system that allows for choice... there are definitely many benefits of having one full time parent, and the decision for women or men to stay home and raise their children should not be frowned upon - but on the same.token, the decision for both parents to work full time should not be frowned upon or penalized. People, couples should be able to have choice and a system that supports either choice is preferable in my opinion.
Yes, definitely. The only couples who do not have free choice, in the Swiss system, are those whose earnings are in the very lowest range, so that both parents have to work, some even taking on several jobs. They are, however, a small segment of the population.

Other than in that range, in Switzerland each couple and each parent, does have the free choice to decide to what extent either or both of them stays at home, or goes out to work - as long as, of course, the basic minimun living costs are covered.

Swiss society has changed a lot, or at least, certainly so in the urban areas, where many different models of life are accepted.
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  #129  
Old 11.10.2019, 02:45
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

That sounds very difficult for poorer families. You’d think private companies would find a better solution for those who need help. I think it’s great, though, that fathers are playing a more active roll in parenting nowadays!
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  #130  
Old 11.10.2019, 03:14
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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That sounds very difficult for poorer families.
Yes, it is.

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You’d think private companies would find a better solution for those who need help.
Sadly, nope. Switzerland is a strange mix of systems, and some things are wonderful.

The private companies are not part of the solution, but are in part the problem. The fact that there are even Working Poor, at all, is often a result of private companies having maxed out the solution for themselves and their profit, not considering the help their staff may need. Not different from many other countries, in that regard.
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  #131  
Old 11.10.2019, 09:07
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Yes, definitely. The only couples who do not have free choice, in the Swiss system, are those whose earnings are in the very lowest range, so that both parents have to work, some even taking on several jobs. They are, however, a small segment of the population.

Other than in that range, in Switzerland each couple and each parent, does have the free choice to decide to what extent either or both of them stays at home, or goes out to work - as long as, of course, the basic minimun living costs are covered.

Swiss society has changed a lot, or at least, certainly so in the urban areas, where many different models of life are accepted.
I completely disagree: Fulltime preschool childcare that goes all the hours a woman might want to work, not just half a day here and there... is easily some 2000 CHF. Per child. I personally know families where the woman stayed at home not because she wanted to but because the childcare for the two kids would eat up all her net earnings so it made no sense to work.

The Swiss system is in no way one of free choice but unusually biased towards traditional gender roles. Way more so than the countries around CH. That some people happen to be wealthy enough to not care about it and do what they like is an entirely different topic. But it is certainly not only an issue for low income families when the childcare bills for two kids can be 50k a year...

P.S: Maternity leave is also the lowest in Europe and probably the only country where the dads get no time off...
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  #132  
Old 11.10.2019, 09:26
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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so I’d say I’m in favor of the Swiss system. I much prefer a system that encourages the traditional family dynamic.
Just a caution to be careful of labelling things as 'The Swiss System'. There is a great deal of diversity of attitude, needs, expectations across areas, economic strata, generations, resulting in significant social differences.

So with the caveat of YMMV in mind, here is what I have observed among my acquaintances in my tiny corner o' Ausserschwyz:

I live in a once traditional farming area that is fast changing into a dormitory suburb.

Most of the women I know over 65 were stay at home mothers. There weren't many options at the time. (Of course, 'stay at home' on the farm meant working one's fingers to the bone 24 hours per day without financial benefit... but that's another discussion.)

The women I know ages 35-65 seem split; some did not and do not work outside the home, some stayed at home while the children were babies but returned to work part time once the children were school age, a handful worked full time throughout.

In contrast, most of the women I know under 35 who have children are working mothers. Some have to work, either full or part time, because one income is no longer sufficient to provide for a household. Some work, either full or part time, because they want to. Many work, either full or part time, because changing social norms mean that partners today tend to split household expenses, each adult is expected to support him or herself and contribute half of the household expenses. Among the young people I know, this seems to be true of both married and unmarried couples.

Yes, social attitudes still seem to 'encourage' women to stay at home, as in there still seems to be inadequate support and infrastructure for child care. Nonetheless, as above, most of the young mothers I know are working. Young working mothers have to juggle responsibilities here as they do pretty much everywhere.

Is my circle of acquaintances a representative sample? Maybe not... but perhaps not wholly unrepresentative of this particular demographic.

The times, they are a-changin'. Even in Switzerland.
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  #133  
Old 11.10.2019, 09:40
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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I completely disagree: Fulltime preschool childcare that goes all the hours a woman might want to work, not just half a day here and there... is easily some 2000 CHF. Per child. I personally know families where the woman stayed at home not because she wanted to but because the childcare for the two kids would eat up all her net earnings so it made no sense to work.
As I've said before on this forum, you can't have it both ways. Low taxes and low-priced services, such as childcare.

Yes, it costs a lot and yes, it was a decent chunk of my salary but, for me the issues were wider than that. I stayed in my career so didn't have to re-apply for jobs 5-10 years later and didn't lose any ground.

If you want to look at the surrounding countries with cheaper childcare, you also have to look at their taxes, too.

You can also find cheaper alternatives in Switzerland but you tend to see the expats on here opting for the bilingual, organic food, prissy-posh places where the staff will speak English with them and give them a daily nappy-by-nappy report then, for the purposes of this forum, this become the eye-wateringly expensive norm.

If you are on a low income, you can apply for subsidies, too, but you probably won't get the option of the prissy-posh bilingual places.

It's not that dissimilar to, say, the UK. General childcare is perhaps a bit more affordable because it receives government funding BUT, if you want little Tarquin to go to one which will teach him Mandarin and get him to grade 4 harpsichord, you will have to find the prissy-posh one which costs a bomb.

Looking at the bigger picture, it is only an expense for a max of 4 years in a child's life (probably more like an average of 2.5 years for most people) where they are in pre-school childcare, then they are into the school system which then, if you want lunches and after-school care is much, much cheaper. I think we paid something like CHF 790 per month for lunches and care until around 6.30.
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  #134  
Old 11.10.2019, 10:05
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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As I've said before on this forum, you can't have it both ways. Low taxes and low-priced services, such as childcare.

Yes, it costs a lot and yes, it was a decent chunk of my salary but, for me the issues were wider than that. I stayed in my career so didn't have to re-apply for jobs 5-10 years later and didn't lose any ground.

If you want to look at the surrounding countries with cheaper childcare, you also have to look at their taxes, too.

You can also find cheaper alternatives in Switzerland but you tend to see the expats on here opting for the bilingual, organic food, prissy-posh places where the staff will speak English with them and give them a daily nappy-by-nappy report then, for the purposes of this forum, this become the eye-wateringly expensive norm.

If you are on a low income, you can apply for subsidies, too, but you probably won't get the option of the prissy-posh bilingual places.

It's not that dissimilar to, say, the UK. General childcare is perhaps a bit more affordable because it receives government funding BUT, if you want little Tarquin to go to one which will teach him Mandarin and get him to grade 4 harpsichord, you will have to find the prissy-posh one which costs a bomb.

Looking at the bigger picture, it is only an expense for a max of 4 years in a child's life (probably more like an average of 2.5 years for most people) where they are in pre-school childcare, then they are into the school system which then, if you want lunches and after-school care is much, much cheaper. I think we paid something like CHF 790 per month for lunches and care until around 6.30.
Is payment for lunches and after school care dependent on parents income or a fix amount which is the same to everyone.
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  #135  
Old 11.10.2019, 10:09
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Is payment for lunches and after school care dependent on parents income or a fix amount which is the same to everyone.
In Zurich you can apply for subsidies for Hort (lunch and after school care) if you are below a certain income.
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  #136  
Old 11.10.2019, 11:18
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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You can also find cheaper alternatives in Switzerland but you tend to see the expats on here opting for the bilingual, organic food, prissy-posh places where the staff will speak English with them and give them a daily nappy-by-nappy report
Can you please show me these "cheaper alternatives" around Zurich? We currently pay more than 2,000 CHF/month for a German-speaking Krippe, with non-organic food.
And it seems this is one of the cheapest, I looked at other Krippen and the cost can be more than 2,500 CHF/month (5 days/week).
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Old 11.10.2019, 11:31
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Can you please show me these "cheaper alternatives" around Zurich? We currently pay more than 2,000 CHF/month for a German-speaking Krippe, with non-organic food.
And it seems this is one of the cheapest, I looked at other Krippen and the cost can be more than 2,500 CHF/month (5 days/week).
You're in it.

We used to pay 3000 for bloody Globegarden, and chose that because it was pretty much next door to my office AND they had space. Beggars can't be choosers, and all that (although maybe that's the wrong analogy in this case... )

Having said that, if you really are genuinely struggling to pay it, you could be entitled to a subsidy.
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  #138  
Old 11.10.2019, 11:45
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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You're in it.

We used to pay 3000 for bloody Globegarden
I should have said "cheaper than what we're currently paying, i.e. around 2000 CHF"
For 2 kids, this means ~4000 CHF. If one brings home 5-6k net, paying this sum every month is hardly an incentive to go to work.
OTOH, if one stays too many years away, it will be harder and harder to reentry the workforce .

IMO, the threshold for getting subsidy is too low (I think 100k). If a family makes 120k, they cannot apply to it, but they will pay 50% of their income to childcare. A solution would be to have progressive subsidies. Example:
* family earning less than 100k -> pay X%
* family earning between [100k, 150k] -> pay (X + Y) %
Etc.

In OECD countries, the average spending on childcare is ~13% of family income (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...are-cost-oecd/)
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  #139  
Old 11.10.2019, 12:50
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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We currently pay more than 2,000 CHF/month for a German-speaking Krippe, with non-organic food.
What do you expect for such a cheap place?

Tom
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Old 11.10.2019, 13:14
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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As I've said before on this forum, you can't have it both ways. Low taxes and low-priced services, such as childcare.
Well, the honest truth is that the world isnt that black and white.

1. I dont think the ultra high service costs of CH are purely a lack of public funding. Stuff simply is expensive in CH, mostly due to a lack of competition. Listening to parents how hard it is to find a place even at that prices do I for one wonder why there are not a million people opening more businesses… and I strongly assume that there are some steep "very Swiss" hurdles to do so. Or to put things differently: I lived in a business friendly low tax place called Singapore before. Taxes are lower than in CH and parents have the choice from anywhere around 300 bucks a month to the 3000 a month organic all-in place.

2. Tax money seems to be the argument against any sort of social program in Switzerland with one huge exception. If there is no money to pay for a decent maternity leave, but there are always billions available whenever the farmer lobby want something… well, then its not about money but a political decision. Let just be honest about it.
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