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Old 13.10.2019, 11:35
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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You get people like that all over the world, though. Out of interest where were these "Swiss ladies" exactly? The amount of working mums and krippe places in Zurich, for example, makes it the norm rather than the exception.

I could imagine that kind of attitude outside of cities but, then again, where I grew up in England there are a fair few mummies with a similar outlook. The tabloids are on a perpetual battle to denounce working mothers, and Mumsnet is full of skirmishes between the battle-ready SAHM and the easily guilt-tripped working mother .
It was in a Swiss city in a large company. I assume that most of those ladies took some years off when their kids were small which typically results in a career that doesn’t get as high into management as the men wo work longer. Seeing a woman not fully prioritizing her kids but also doing her career seems to create way more jealousy with the ladies than with men.
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Old 13.10.2019, 11:40
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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I was walking my youngest two to Krippe once early morning before work and two of these Swiss ladies, with their nordic walking poles and nothing better to do, strolled passed me and sneered "Hausmann".
WTF?
You should have answered in reference to a well known FDP politician “are you somebody or do you have a salary?”
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  #163  
Old 13.10.2019, 11:46
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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As for apartment buildings, that you won't avoid in Switzerland !
True, but at least we own ours (at least the part that the bank doesn't own).

Tom
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  #164  
Old 13.10.2019, 17:00
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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You should have answered in reference to a well known FDP politician “are you somebody or do you have a salary?”
Wow, when did Elisabeth de Meuron join the FDP?
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  #165  
Old 13.10.2019, 18:21
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

Each suburb had its own distinct flavor. There are areas, esp off the 580 freeway, that I won’t even stop to get gas for my car. Lots of unprovoked gun violence... which I’m sure is not news to most of you. Be careful on public transportation. Not sure if you travel on the BART train, but stabbings often happen...you just never know who might jump on; especially in Oakland on your way to the city from East Bay. Even San Francisco has changed a lot in the past 5-10 yrs. Poverty and filth at every corner. Human feces on the streets is a big problem. I used to live there about ~10 yrs ago it wasn’t like this. I felt safe in the good neighborhoods, but not so much these days. Too much poverty, gun violence, and violent crime in general.


Don’t get me wrong, the Bay Area has lots of great things to offer, too! There are many things I love about this part of the country, but some major problems that are becoming harder and harder to live with and accept.


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I'm trying to get my head around the concept of being afraid to leave your small space/town. What makes you feel unsafe (asking bc I travel to that area often)? That level of isolation seems sad in light of what is on offer in the Bay area.

As for apartment buildings, that you won't avoid in Switzerland !
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  #166  
Old 14.10.2019, 11:06
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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You get people like that all over the world, though. Out of interest where were these "Swiss ladies" exactly? The amount of working mums and krippe places in Zurich, for example, makes it the norm rather than the exception.

I could imagine that kind of attitude outside of cities but, then again, where I grew up in England there are a fair few mummies with a similar outlook. The tabloids are on a perpetual battle to denounce working mothers, and Mumsnet is full of skirmishes between the battle-ready SAHM and the easily guilt-tripped working mother .
Not everywhere though. I still have some problems when I have to tell people back home I am staying at home with the kids "for the time being!!!" I always feel "obligated" to add this hastily so the impression would be somehow....."improved"*. Working moms are the very norm and it's expected to have a job/career even when you have kids back home, even if you can afford to be a stay-at-home mom. Of course, I tell people I have my own projects and part-time work so all is not lost....funny how different the expectations can be from place to place.
*I don't think that people judge you, but they're definitely puzzled by how things work in CH. Have to explain everyone the education system, some things about child care, taxation etc etc etc I don't even think they understand how difficult it can be here without any support from your family so I usually leave at that..;-)
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  #167  
Old 14.10.2019, 11:28
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Hopefully that changes soon for those families that need 2+ low-wage incomes to survive in an already expensive country.


There are very few working class people who can afford to live here and most of them live in other cities. How does the working class afford to live in Switzerland when the whole country is expensive?

I'm confused about "working-class." Who qualifies as working class, people who work? People who make more money than....who?

Many people work because they find the work they do is valuable and they enjoy it. Some people don't because they choose not to or are in life circumstances that don't allow it. It doesn't matter as long as someone doesn't try to force their worldview on others. Pretty sure our mother's and grandmothers fought long and hard for the right to make their own decisions, yes?
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  #168  
Old 14.10.2019, 11:37
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Not everywhere though. I still have some problems when I have to tell people back home I am staying at home with the kids "for the time being!!!" I always feel "obligated" to add this hastily so the impression would be somehow....."improved"*. Working moms are the very norm and it's expected to have a job/career even when you have kids back home, even if you can afford to be a stay-at-home mom. Of course, I tell people I have my own projects and part-time work so all is not lost....funny how different the expectations can be from place to place.
*I don't think that people judge you, but they're definitely puzzled by how things work in CH. Have to explain everyone the education system, some things about child care, taxation etc etc etc I don't even think they understand how difficult it can be here without any support from your family so I usually leave at that..;-)
It's interesting that you feel you have to explain it to everyone. And if they're not judging you, why do you feel you "hastily" have to give reasons for staying at home with the kids for the time being?

Is something preventing you from working, or is it just through choice? If you wanted to work, are you having trouble finding childcare in your area?

Your reasoning doesn't seem to lay much blame on the Swiss system, rather that you feel you have to justify your choices to (non-judgmental?) friends and family in your country of origin.

Sorry if that's not how you intended it to sound but that's how I understood it.

I have to opposite problem - my mum thinks its terrible that I work full time with a family but I just tell her that's my choice. End of. It's certainly not all plain sailing juggling home/family/work but show me one woman who says it's a breeze and I'll show you a liar...
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  #169  
Old 14.10.2019, 11:46
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Each suburb had its own distinct flavor. There are areas, esp off the 580 freeway, that I won’t even stop to get gas for my car. Lots of unprovoked gun violence... which I’m sure is not news to most of you. Be careful on public transportation. Not sure if you travel on the BART train, but stabbings often happen...you just never know who might jump on; especially in Oakland on your way to the city from East Bay. Even San Francisco has changed a lot in the past 5-10 yrs. Poverty and filth at every corner. Human feces on the streets is a big problem. I used to live there about ~10 yrs ago it wasn’t like this. I felt safe in the good neighborhoods, but not so much these days. Too much poverty, gun violence, and violent crime in general.


Don’t get me wrong, the Bay Area has lots of great things to offer, too! There are many things I love about this part of the country, but some major problems that are becoming harder and harder to live with and accept.
I really like the Bay area, tbh. There is a certain cognitive agility that's hard to find elsewhere. It is different than the rest of Cali and the US, pretty much.. Rode BART many times and it did not feel unsafe at any moment. Your comments are interesting, especially because SF is campaigning so much to "welcome us all". How do you feel about that considering that you would like other places to "welcome" you.

What you wrote about SAHMs I agree with. Except - that most couples who went for that formula did not make it. Including my own. And then what will you do? Do think about it. They did not plan on it, of course. Ideals are important motivators but they make for a lousy back up plan. Thank you for sharing here, it is good to read your thoughts.
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  #170  
Old 14.10.2019, 14:33
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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It's interesting that you feel you have to explain it to everyone. And if they're not judging you, why do you feel you "hastily" have to give reasons for staying at home with the kids for the time being?
Only to those interested in the "why" to be more precise. I think I know very well their way of thinking and their expectations...and tend to be a bit "defensive" probably, not sure if this is the right word. I guess the point I was trying to make is that we're somehow forced (or better said, feel compelled) to confront our choices starting from totally opposite mentalities and expectations (in some regards). I don't think people judge moms, it's more like they genuinely worry about moms that - in their view - sacrifice too much. I am not at all comfortable (quite the opposite tbh) with people worrying about me and yeah, I might come across a bit defensive..
Don't get me wrong - I am not complying. There are quite a few reasons for my/our choices, but am not blaming the Swiss system (I know there are a few issues in these regards though) or anyone/anything else. Other than for the time being I do what it makes more sense for all four of us, of course.

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I have to opposite problem - my mum thinks its terrible that I work full time with a family but I just tell her that's my choice. End of. It's certainly not all plain sailing juggling home/family/work but show me one woman who says it's a breeze and I'll show you a liar...
My mom is still working and she'll probably retire later than normal because this is how she is...but she never commented on my choices. She said it's for the best given our current life context. And anyway she is the only person I wouldn't mind being "judged" by, not that she would do that from other reasons than concern or love.
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  #171  
Old 14.10.2019, 14:40
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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Not everywhere though. I still have some problems when I have to tell people back home I am staying at home with the kids "for the time being!!!" I always feel "obligated" to add this hastily so the impression would be somehow....."improved"*.

You don't owe anyone an explanation (but I do understand the motivation to do so). I find the best response to nosy questions is "Why do you ask?" Then stare at them an wait for the response. They usually tie themselves into knots bc they know it was nosy and inappropriate. If they come up with an answer, it gives you a clue to their motivations.
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  #172  
Old 14.10.2019, 14:47
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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You don't owe anyone an explanation (but I do understand the motivation to do so). I find the best response to nosy questions is "Why do you ask?" Then stare at them an wait for the response. They usually tie themselves into knots bc they know it was nosy and inappropriate. If they come up with an answer, it gives you a clue to their motivations.
Excellent! Thank you, MegsB!

This goes along with a way of coping, too, with well-intended but unwelcome suggestions of how better one should/ought to be doing things, according to the person suggesting. Just say: "Thank you." Then go silent.

Sometimes they, too, fall silent, and then they feel awkward and change the topic. Or they ask: "Thank you for what?" and I say: "For caring enough about my well-being for wanting to suggest another option, amongst many."
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  #173  
Old 14.10.2019, 17:54
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

“Working class” is the term we use for blue collar workers.

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I'm confused about "working-class." Who qualifies as working class, people who work? People who make more money than....who?

Many people work because they find the work they do is valuable and they enjoy it. Some people don't because they choose not to or are in life circumstances that don't allow it. It doesn't matter as long as someone doesn't try to force their worldview on others. Pretty sure our mother's and grandmothers fought long and hard for the right to make their own decisions, yes?
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Old 14.10.2019, 17:57
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

BART is disgusting. You’d think with the amount they tax us we’d have better public transportation, but instead we have old dingy train cars that always smell like urine and are filled with a bunch of crazies. No thanks. I’d rather sit in traffic for an hour to cross the bridge. If you’re riding between Pleasanton and Walnut Creek, it’s not so bad.

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I really like the Bay area, tbh. There is a certain cognitive agility that's hard to find elsewhere. It is different than the rest of Cali and the US, pretty much.. Rode BART many times and it did not feel unsafe at any moment. Your comments are interesting, especially because SF is campaigning so much to "welcome us all". How do you feel about that considering that you would like other places to "welcome" you.

What you wrote about SAHMs I agree with. Except - that most couples who went for that formula did not make it. Including my own. And then what will you do? Do think about it. They did not plan on it, of course. Ideals are important motivators but they make for a lousy back up plan. Thank you for sharing here, it is good to read your thoughts.
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  #175  
Old 14.10.2019, 18:03
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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we have old dingy train cars that always smell like urine and are filled with a bunch of crazies.
So, basically the same as my trip from Arth-Goldau to Belli last Friday!

Tom
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Old 14.10.2019, 18:05
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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“Working class” is the term we use for blue collar workers.
So, most people in Switzerland then.

Tom
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Old 14.10.2019, 20:01
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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BART is disgusting. You’d think with the amount they tax us we’d have better public transportation, but instead we have old dingy train cars that always smell like urine and are filled with a bunch of crazies. No thanks. I’d rather sit in traffic for an hour to cross the bridge. If you’re riding between Pleasanton and Walnut Creek, it’s not so bad.
Disgusting? Well, happy to have BART to have served me many times
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Old 14.10.2019, 20:18
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

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So, basically the same as my trip from Arth-Goldau to Belli last Friday!

Tom



Why, you pissed in the carriage ?
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Old 15.10.2019, 04:05
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Re: The dirt on Switzerland

We, locals, are always curious about what foreigners think, so I’m glad you weren’t repulsed lol

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Disgusting? Well, happy to have BART to have served me many times
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