Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21961  
Old 05.03.2021, 12:36
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is online now
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,417
Groaned at 31 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 3,268 Times in 1,513 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If only they'd locked down...
How should we read this graph?

One option is that I see 13 countries with higher and 17 countries with lower death rate than Sweden.

Other option is looking at a map and all the neighbors have a lower death rate: Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

If better than the UK is the bar, it's quite a low bar.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #21962  
Old 05.03.2021, 12:39
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,094
Groaned at 446 Times in 384 Posts
Thanked 18,642 Times in 9,863 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Sweden led the way, we now have the likes of Florida, Texas and Mississippi to show the utter pointlessness of mask mandates been amusing seeing some of the forum cranks on here arguing with residents of Sweden about how stringent their lockdown is, or trying their best to point out that closing restaurants at 2030 is some kind of radical U-turn

Sweden led the way, by showing the world that one doesn't swat a mosquito with a cannon ball. I was reminded today of what the Guardian told us back in May of 2020 how Eastern Europe suffered less from Coronavirus because they locked down early. Fast forward to March 2021 and many of these countries now have a higher death rates than Sweden!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-than-the-west
Our resident coronavirus science expert still fails to understand the Oxford University analysis comparing restrictions by country.
Name:  stringency050321.jpg
Views: 435
Size:  53.1 KB
Reply With Quote
  #21963  
Old 05.03.2021, 12:42
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 1,879
Groaned at 39 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 2,616 Times in 1,266 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Indeed, in your chart, Sweden is still showing over ten times the death rate of their neighbours.
I think that's simplistic

1) Why is Denmark 4 times that of Norway (in multiple terms closer to Sweden than Norway)? If you attribute Sweden's triple death rate vs. Denmark to laxer restrictions then you need to be able to explain that difference too.

2) Why indeed has Norway done so well when its restrictions on the "stringency" index aren't particularly high.

In general the trend between stringency and deaths doesn't appear to be high. I do accept that lockdown reduces R so works in the short term - but does it in the long?

There's a lot of me that thinks that harsh lockdowns don't really work in the long term as people then yo-yo their behaviour, but that more lengthy and more gentle restrictions work better.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #21964  
Old 05.03.2021, 12:52
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,094
Groaned at 446 Times in 384 Posts
Thanked 18,642 Times in 9,863 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I think that's simplistic

1) Why is Denmark 4 times that of Norway (in multiple terms closer to Sweden than Norway)? If you attribute Sweden's triple death rate vs. Denmark to laxer restrictions then you need to be able to explain that difference too.

2) Why indeed has Norway done so well when its restrictions on the "stringency" index aren't particularly high.

In general the trend between stringency and deaths doesn't appear to be high. I do accept that lockdown reduces R so works in the short term - but does it in the long?

There's a lot of me that thinks that harsh lockdowns don't really work in the long term as people then yo-yo their behaviour, but that more lengthy and more gentle restrictions work better.
" Why is Denmark 4 times that of Norway" Because there is no land link between Norway and Denmark but there is a Denmark/Germany land link?

On the "stringency" index Norway is higher than Switzerland, might be interesting to compare the "stringency" index with death rates but as "stringency" index and the death rates are both lagging indicators it will require some thinking about.
Reply With Quote
  #21965  
Old 05.03.2021, 13:03
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 1,879
Groaned at 39 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 2,616 Times in 1,266 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

https://pasteboard.co/JRcyPp2.png



Here is a graph I made showing Stringency Index v Death Rate in European countries. There is a slight positive correlation between increased stringency and increased death rates but its not strong.

That may be because after the death rate goes up the stringency increases. Health warning!

My guess: the sensibleness of the restrictions plays a big part in how effective they are in the long term. You need population buy in and you need them to be observed long term. This is where Switzerland has done well. Yoyoing and changing the rules every 5 seconds doesn't work.

Sensible restrictions treating people like adults > no restrictions

Sensible restrictions treating people like adults also > UK style nanny restrictions

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 05.03.2021 at 13:16.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #21966  
Old 05.03.2021, 13:10
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is online now
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,417
Groaned at 31 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 3,268 Times in 1,513 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
https://pasteboard.co/JRcyPp2.png



Here is a graph I made showing Stringency Index v Death Rate in European countries. There is a slight positive correlation between increased stringency and increased death rates but its not strong.

That may be because after the death rate goes up the stringency increases. Health warning!

My guess: the sensibleness of the restrictions plays a big part in how effective they are in the long term. You need population buy in.
I know Christmas was 2 months ago, but can I wish for a time-weighted stringency index? Usually the strongest measures are applied only after cases increased too much too fast. So, totally possible that a country where everyone is trapped at home right now has a higher cumulated death rate over the last year.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #21967  
Old 05.03.2021, 13:24
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 1,879
Groaned at 39 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 2,616 Times in 1,266 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
" Why is Denmark 4 times that of Norway" Because there is no land link between Norway and Denmark but there is a Denmark/Germany land link?

On the "stringency" index Norway is higher than Switzerland, might be interesting to compare the "stringency" index with death rates but as "stringency" index and the death rates are both lagging indicators it will require some thinking about.
Its a long way from Germany to Copenhagen and with multiple bridges island hopping.

Of course, Copenhagen does border Sweden, but I thought Malmo (at least earlier in the pandemic) was doing very well by Swedish standards.
Reply With Quote
  #21968  
Old 05.03.2021, 13:49
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,122
Groaned at 444 Times in 260 Posts
Thanked 2,791 Times in 1,264 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I'm not sure what I think of this - but the dissimilarity between Czech Republic and Poland and Slovakia makes me think twice about the arguments you should only compare Sweden with Denmark and Norway. Heck even Norway and Denmark aren't really close to each other (difference is a factor of 4 - Norway has had exceptionally good results).

Also Belgium is very much higher than both France and Netherlands.

I don't think its evidence that Sweden were right, but I do think that the comparisons offered by some are a red herring. Really there isn't a particularly high trend for demographically similar countries to be close to each other on the list.

Of the top 6 - Slovenia, Belgium, Czech Republic, UK, Italy, Portugal - really that's a pretty eclectic mix. Only two of the countries border each other - and they (Slovenia and Italy) really aren't very similar.

On balance, I do think Sweden could have saved more lives, but whether they got the balance right between liberty and death rate is more of a matter of opinion than fact. Personally I would never have shut shops or schools but I would have closed bars and restaurants for extended periods. There isn't always a right or a wrong.
Exactly, choosing countries to compare with one another is simply cherry picking. Demographics, urban population, diet, culture, obesity, recent death rate, factors such as these all play a role in the total death rate. This is why it's better to compare to the bigger picture.

Quote:
View Post
How should we read this graph?

One option is that I see 13 countries with higher and 17 countries with lower death rate than Sweden.
That's exactly how to look at it. All those countries have had more stringent lockdown measures than Sweden, yet Sweden finds itself just about in the middle of the pack. If Sweden were your control group, what would be your conclusion?

Ultimately, as Hick has pointed out there is very little correlation between lockdown stringency/mask mandates and the Covid death rate. So given the harm we know lockdowns cause, it's increasingly clear that they're not worth it.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #21969  
Old 05.03.2021, 13:52
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 20,389
Groaned at 429 Times in 320 Posts
Thanked 20,833 Times in 11,040 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Super Antibodies worth watching https://www.facebook.com/bbcnews/vid...ideo&ref=notif
Reply With Quote
  #21970  
Old 05.03.2021, 14:12
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,094
Groaned at 446 Times in 384 Posts
Thanked 18,642 Times in 9,863 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Exactly, choosing countries to compare with one another is simply cherry picking. Demographics, urban population, diet, culture, obesity, recent death rate, factors such as these all play a role in the total death rate. This is why it's better to compare to the bigger picture.



That's exactly how to look at it. All those countries have had more stringent lockdown measures than Sweden, yet Sweden finds itself just about in the middle of the pack. If Sweden were your control group, what would be your conclusion?

Ultimately, as Hick has pointed out there is very little correlation between lockdown stringency/mask mandates and the Covid death rate. So given the harm we know lockdowns cause, it's increasingly clear that they're not worth it.
Sadly, another fact-free claim.
If you looked at the Oxford University stringency study you would see that not all the countries with higher death rates than Sweden have more stringent lockdown measures than Sweden.
In fact, the country with the highest death rate, Slovenia, has a much lower stringency index.
Reply With Quote
  #21971  
Old 05.03.2021, 14:19
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,094
Groaned at 446 Times in 384 Posts
Thanked 18,642 Times in 9,863 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
https://pasteboard.co/JRcyPp2.png



Here is a graph I made showing Stringency Index v Death Rate in European countries. There is a slight positive correlation between increased stringency and increased death rates but its not strong.

That may be because after the death rate goes up the stringency increases. Health warning!

My guess: the sensibleness of the restrictions plays a big part in how effective they are in the long term. You need population buy in and you need them to be observed long term. This is where Switzerland has done well. Yoyoing and changing the rules every 5 seconds doesn't work.

Sensible restrictions treating people like adults > no restrictions

Sensible restrictions treating people like adults also > UK style nanny restrictions
I suppose one could postulate that countries with increasing numbers of cases introduce more stringent measures, those increasing numbers of cases in turn after a while generate increasing numbers of deaths.
Then in turn the more stringent measures reduce the number of new cases and later reduce the death rate.

As Axa posted, it needs to be somehow time related. For example, if a country now introduces new measures that will not reduce the historical death rate but should reduce the daily death rate in future.
Reply With Quote
  #21972  
Old 05.03.2021, 14:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,456
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 511 Posts
axman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

How is a "lockdown" defined anyway? Chinese military style, or Swiss style where you can still go skiing and sit in tight gondolas?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank axman for this useful post:
  #21973  
Old 05.03.2021, 14:32
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is online now
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,417
Groaned at 31 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 3,268 Times in 1,513 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
That's exactly how to look at it. All those countries have had more stringent lockdown measures than Sweden, yet Sweden finds itself just about in the middle of the pack. If Sweden were your control group, what would be your conclusion?

Ultimately, as Hick has pointed out there is very little correlation between lockdown stringency/mask mandates and the Covid death rate. So given the harm we know lockdowns cause, it's increasingly clear that they're not worth it.
My conclusion is that mediocre approach yields mediocre outcome, consistent with that middle of the pack.

A second conclusion is that the covid19 ultra-marathon has not ended. The 3rd wave has arrived to Stockholm https://www.thelocal.se/20210303/sto...id-19-is-here/

The strength of measures needs to be assessed in the context of when was the application. At least in Switzerland they arrive only after cases have increased on October 2020. Mass events were allowed to reopen such as sports, trade fairs, cantonal festivities, etc and hard measures such as closure of shops and restaurants had to be implemented. Strong measures can be of little use if too late, and light measures can be quite useful is applied at the right time.

My impression is that Sweden applied light measures at the right time: before the first wave in March/April 2020. No need for hard lockdown when cases were low. A bit of distancing and washing hands was enough and it was a successful way of dealing with the first wave. But later on 2020 with the second wave and now with the 3rd wave, the death toll kept and keeps rising.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #21974  
Old 05.03.2021, 14:35
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 1,879
Groaned at 39 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 2,616 Times in 1,266 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I suppose one could postulate that countries with increasing numbers of cases introduce more stringent measures, those increasing numbers of cases in turn after a while generate increasing numbers of deaths.
Then in turn the more stringent measures reduce the number of new cases and later reduce the death rate.

As Axa posted, it needs to be somehow time related. For example, if a country now introduces new measures that will not reduce the historical death rate but should reduce the daily death rate in future.
Agreed. I made the same point in rather less beautiful language.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #21975  
Old 05.03.2021, 14:40
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,122
Groaned at 444 Times in 260 Posts
Thanked 2,791 Times in 1,264 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
My conclusion is that mediocre approach yields mediocre outcome, consistent with that middle of the pack.

A second conclusion is that the covid19 ultra-marathon has not ended. The 3rd wave has arrived to Stockholm https://www.thelocal.se/20210303/sto...id-19-is-here/

The strength of measures needs to be assessed in the context of when was the application. At least in Switzerland they arrive only after cases have increased on October 2020. Mass events were allowed to reopen such as sports, trade fairs, cantonal festivities, etc and hard measures such as closure of shops and restaurants had to be implemented. Strong measures can be of little use if too late, and light measures can be quite useful is applied at the right time.

My impression is that Sweden applied light measures at the right time: before the first wave in March/April 2020. No need for hard lockdown when cases were low. A bit of distancing and washing hands was enough and it was a successful way of dealing with the first wave. But later on 2020 with the second wave and now with the 3rd wave, the death toll kept and keeps rising.
That's true enough, and it's what Anders Tegnell said at the very beginning of the pandemic. The best example of this is countries like Germany and certain countries in Eastern Europe that were praised in the summer of 2020
are now generally thought to have handled the pandemic badly.

The signs of a third wave are there, across much of Europe now (apart from the UK) where the vaccine rollout appears to be working wonders.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #21976  
Old 05.03.2021, 14:42
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 1,879
Groaned at 39 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 2,616 Times in 1,266 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
That's true enough, and it's what Anders Tegnell said at the very beginning of the pandemic. The best example of this is countries like Germany and certain countries in Eastern Europe that were praised in the summer of 2020
are now generally thought to have handled the pandemic badly.

The signs of a third wave are there, across much of Europe now (apart from the UK) where the vaccine rollout appears to be working wonders.
Germany is still doing rather better than average.
Reply With Quote
  #21977  
Old 05.03.2021, 15:04
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,122
Groaned at 444 Times in 260 Posts
Thanked 2,791 Times in 1,264 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Germany is still doing rather better than average.
Having had done much better than average early on, and now lockdown has been extended to the end of March. Ultimately it's a matter of perspective, and the Germans are starting to become very unsatisfied with their (or rather their politicians) performance.

German corona policy
-A story of failure

https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/video...uesse-100.html
Reply With Quote
  #21978  
Old 05.03.2021, 15:17
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 1,879
Groaned at 39 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 2,616 Times in 1,266 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Having had done much better than average early on, and now lockdown has been extended to the end of March. Ultimately it's a matter of perspective, and the Germans are starting to become very unsatisfied with their (or rather their politicians) performance.

German corona policy
-A story of failure

https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/video...uesse-100.html
Well sometimes politicians get praise or criticism when its not warranted. That's life. Jacinda Arden had a huge majority because she represents an island with a small population that is extremely remote from any other significant body of land. Covid was always going to be eradicable there.

I don't think Merkel has done much wrong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #21979  
Old 05.03.2021, 15:29
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,456
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 511 Posts
axman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The best example of this is countries like Germany and certain countries in Eastern Europe that were praised in the summer of 2020 are now generally thought to have handled the pandemic badly.
I wouldn't say the Eastern European countries handled it badly. They handled it very well before summer 2020, but not very well now.
As I mentioned earlier, I believe its the success paradox.

After the first wave most people there were wondering what the fuss was all about because no one knows anyone who got sick. So now no one is taking things seriously anymore and hence they have a much worse 2nd and 3rd wave.

In other words, we can clearly see that their tough measures worked in the first wave, and their lack of tough measures currently has resulted in a huge spike.
Reply With Quote
  #21980  
Old 05.03.2021, 15:39
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: LaCote
Posts: 920
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,616 Times in 619 Posts
Sigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Todays numbers

On Friday, the BAG reported 1222 new infections

31726 tests

PR 3.9%

61 hospitalisations

12 death

https://www.20min.ch/story/corona-za...k-803083076953


Compared to last week friday

Quote:
View Post
Today’s reported numbers

1065 cases
46. Hospitalisations
8. Deaths
29915 Tests

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Sigh for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 14 (4 members and 10 guests)
Elu, TinyK, Ollie
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coronavirus Jokes makeabigwish Daily life 155 Yesterday 08:49
Coronavirus closed janvier Forum support 18 01.11.2020 13:12
Paid holidays and coronavirus Curtiss Employment 2 20.04.2020 09:22
Coronavirus scammers are out there - be warned Medea Fleecestealer Daily life 9 18.04.2020 18:53
Leaving Switzerland for UK during coronavirus barkingtreewolf Leaving Switzerland 19 11.04.2020 11:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0