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  #22501  
Old 16.03.2021, 07:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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Thank god we are NOT in the EU!

Tom
However, the EU has at least approved the AZ vaccine...
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  #22502  
Old 16.03.2021, 07:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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As a doctor pointed out on BBC Radio 4 this afternoon, the danger of stopping the vaccine programme even for a few days across Europe will produce immeasurably more death and illness than any supposed side effects from the vaccine itself. But if some of these big EU countries want to stop the vaccine rollout, then I hope they at least pass their unused stocks to countries who would welcome them.
They didn’t stop the vaccine rollout but temporarily halted the use of one of the vaccines it in order to investigate the adverse events. They will look into the cases and possibly resume the vaccination with AZ. This is done often on clinical trials when the recruitment is paused in case of serious side effects.

I think it should be made very clear that they are not “stopping the vaccine program across EU”, but temporarily halting the use of one vaccine. You cannot compare the pandemic deaths and the deaths from vaccination and simply pick which one is worse. For healthy people with minimal risk of serious Covid it is not acceptable to have serious side effects from vaccination.
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Old 16.03.2021, 08:39
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Re: Coronavirus

So in a week or two the Bureaucrats will decide it is safer to use the AZ then not to. But then the public will have read and believed all the happy-crappy from the media and will politely decline the vaccine if its the AZ one.


“When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout”
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Old 16.03.2021, 08:59
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Re: Coronavirus

One of the three persons in Norway, that I mentioned above, died.

Germany is calling on all persons who still feel unwell 4 or more days after vaccination with AZ seek a doctor's advice.
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  #22505  
Old 16.03.2021, 09:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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One of the three persons in Norway, that I mentioned above, died.

Germany is calling on all persons who still feel unwell 4 or more days after vaccination with AZ seek a doctor's advice.
Local Norway-
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A health worker in Norway has died of a brain haemorrhage after receiving the AstraZeneca anti-Covid vaccine, though no direct link to the jab has been established, health authorities said Monday.
No idea what the truth is!
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  #22506  
Old 16.03.2021, 09:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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They didn’t stop the vaccine rollout but temporarily halted the use of one of the vaccines it in order to investigate the adverse events. They will look into the cases and possibly resume the vaccination with AZ. This is done often on clinical trials when the recruitment is paused in case of serious side effects.

I think it should be made very clear that they are not “stopping the vaccine program across EU”, but temporarily halting the use of one vaccine. You cannot compare the pandemic deaths and the deaths from vaccination and simply pick which one is worse. For healthy people with minimal risk of serious Covid it is not acceptable to have serious side effects from vaccination.
This maybe a relevant point if there were any basis whatsoever to the reason for "pausing" as you say, the vaccine rollout. There have been a similar number of blood clots in patients who have taken the Pfizer vaccine as AstraZeneca.

This is a political decision, plain and simple, of the worst possible kind.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...d77200018e5936
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Old 16.03.2021, 09:55
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Re: Coronavirus

Sweden and Latvia joined the other countries today in this decision.

I wonder, if it can be political decision for Sweden as AZ is a Swedish company.
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:09
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Re: Coronavirus

Some good news from Zurich (Google translated):
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In the canton of Zurich, there should soon be faster progress with the vaccination against Covid-19. As Health Director Natalie Rickli announced, the canton expects a larger vaccine delivery at the end of March. The federal government has also adjusted its distribution key for the vaccine, according to Rickli. Now take this into account for the entire population.

From mid-April, Zurich will therefore receive disproportionately more vaccine than before. Up until now, Zurich had been neglected in this regard compared to other cantons. The reason given by the federal government: The population of the canton of Zurich is younger and has fewer high-risk patients.

According to current planning, the canton will receive a total of 330,000 vaccine doses in April. This means that 165,000 people can be vaccinated.

In addition, the new online registration tool will be activated at the end of March, shortly before the vaccination centers open, according to Rickli. The largest vaccination center in the Zurich Exhibition Center is scheduled to open on April 6, the remaining ten will follow in stages
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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This maybe a relevant point if there were any basis whatsoever to the reason for "pausing" as you say, the vaccine rollout. There have been a similar number of blood clots in patients who have taken the Pfizer vaccine as AstraZeneca.

This is a political decision, plain and simple, of the worst possible kind.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...d77200018e5936
AZ has been shady in reporting clinical data from the beginning ...

https://www.wired.com/story/the-astr...t-up-to-snuff/

It is obvious there is a political game simultaneously going on in the background, but I am not too keen on the vaccine and haven't been from the beginning. The US has rejected it and they aren't technically part of that game.
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  #22510  
Old 16.03.2021, 10:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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AZ has been shady in reporting clinical data from the beginning ...

https://www.wired.com/story/the-astr...t-up-to-snuff/

It is obvious there is a political game simultaneously going on in the background, but I am not too keen on the vaccine and haven't been from the beginning. The US has rejected it and they aren't technically part of that game.
The US hasn't rejected the AZ vaccine, they just haven't approved it yet. 11 million people in the UK have received the AZ vaccine without major reports of side effects.
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:30
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Re: Coronavirus

Life is not going back to normal this year, is it? I had high hopes a few months ago, but vaccine roll out in general is a shambles and looks like another wave is here
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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But then the public will have read and believed all the happy-crappy from the media and will politely decline the vaccine if its the AZ one.
wasnt that the point?
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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The US hasn't rejected the AZ vaccine, they just haven't approved it yet. 11 million people in the UK have received the AZ vaccine without major reports of side effects.
There are reports it may be approved in April, but they are concerned about the efficacy, as am I - I am not so concerned about the side effects as they seem to be minimal, I am more concerned about the efficacy:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/...tfalls-analyst
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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With that in mind is the news of 3 people getting a clot sufficient evidence to stop vaccination of a group of highly vulnerable people when the disease is spreading freely?

In any case, what exactly do they expect to find out in the period while vaccination is paused? There will be more clots - that's just basic statistics. The data set is already in the tens of millions, so we aren't going to get anymore useful information. The reality is that if they don't use AZ the EU will be going deep into 2022 with their vaccination program and most likely tens to hundreds of thousands of extra people will die.

What is known to cause serious blood clots is Covid-19...

The best vaccine to get is the first one you are offered.
This is called covering your own ass in simple terms.

From another perspective, it's about errors of commission and omission. Commission is applying a vaccine that kills 3/100K people. Omission is letting 10K people be killed by the virus by not applying the vaccine.

From our armchair is very simple to say 3/100K is nothing, keep going. But this the situation presented in the fable Belling the Cat. Who wants to be person telling go ahead and leave the perfect paper trail about this decision to be used against you as soon as the pandemic ends? Volunteers? On the other hand, doing nothing (omission) can be sold as caring for safety. A continuation in the political career is ensured. There's also a whole body of literature about commission/omission errors, just search for it. As summary, our ape brains, morals, values or whatever judge more severely commission errors than omission.

If I were in the shoes of the people halting the application of the AZ vaccine, I'd do the same. Why sacrifice my career for a virus with a very low mortality rate? Better take the decisions that can be justified and defended later because opponents are just waiting for a mistake to bite my throat.
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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There are reports it may be approved in April, but they are concerned about the efficacy, as am I - I am not so concerned about the side effects as they seem to be minimal, I am more concerned about the efficacy:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/...tfalls-analyst
A study in Scotland has found a single dose to be more effective than Pfizer.

Just imagine that the same countries telling their populations to wear masks because they "save lives" have suspended a life saving vaccine because a couple of dozen people out of millions have developed blood clots. The madness of the pandemic is just never ending.
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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There are reports it may be approved in April, but they are concerned about the efficacy, as am I - I am not so concerned about the side effects as they seem to be minimal, I am more concerned about the efficacy:

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/...tfalls-analyst
You take hints on efficacy from some hack of a stock market analyst?
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Old 16.03.2021, 10:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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Life is not going back to normal this year, is it?
Maybe there won't be any return to the old normal anymore?
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Old 16.03.2021, 11:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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This maybe a relevant point if there were any basis whatsoever to the reason for "pausing" as you say, the vaccine rollout. There have been a similar number of blood clots in patients who have taken the Pfizer vaccine as AstraZeneca.

This is a political decision, plain and simple, of the worst possible kind.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...d77200018e5936
I wouldn't complain about politics. Politics is the reason Mrs. Sommaruga said something like we're going into lockdown because we need to do it to protect people and because we have the budget to afford it a year ago.

If we looked purely at the numbers of cases, deaths and long term problems, it might make sense to do nothing and keep living as normal. But we care, we're into lockdowns and vaccines because we want to minimize suffering. Individual decisions may not be optimal but the ensemble of the strategy seems to work.

Borrowing a war analogy, what matters is winning the war, not a battle. And winning the war without fueling distrust in government and science. There's no gain in rushing vaccination and fracturing society. More problems will surely come in the future and there's more value in a working high-trust society minimizing the current body count.
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Old 16.03.2021, 11:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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You take hints on efficacy from some hack of a stock market analyst?
I'm sorry, can you please explain your question? Are you referring to former FDA head Scott Gottlieb? He is no longer the FDA leader and hasn't been since the start of the pandemic.
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Old 16.03.2021, 11:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wouldn't complain about politics. Politics is the reason Mrs. Sommaruga said something like we're going into lockdown because we need to do it to protect people and because we have the budget to afford it a year ago.

If we looked purely at the numbers of cases, deaths and long term problems, it might make sense to do nothing and keep living as normal. But we care, we're into lockdowns and vaccines because we want to minimize suffering. Individual decisions may not be optimal but the ensemble of the strategy seems to work.

Borrowing a war analogy, what matters is winning the war, not a battle. And winning the war without fueling distrust in government and science. There's no gain in rushing vaccination and fracturing society. More problems will surely come in the future and there's more value in a working high-trust society minimizing the current body count.
And the best way of winning over society's trust is to pause a vaccination program under no good scientific basis whatsoever?
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