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  #24941  
Old 06.05.2021, 09:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think Damian raises some valid points. Why are goalposts shifting exactly? We started with lockdowns and masks/social distancing to ensure hospitals were not overwhelmed. The point was to CONTAIN the virus and now? Governments want to eradicate the virus?

Explain how that works since we have never been able to eradicate the flu?

So we will have to wear a mask and socially distance for ad Infinitum because of so-called "variants"? And yet this so-called "pandemic"/"endemic" has a fatality rate of .02% of the general populace but we need to live in fear?

And even if one is vaccinated, one still has to wear a mask? Really?? Why get a vaccine then if masks and social distancing are still warranted for whatever reason governments deem appropriate. Therein lies the caveat...

Governments are in control of whether you vaccinate or not. Whatever happened to my body/my choice?

This is beyond nuts/crazy!

The risk for most under the age of 80 being hospitalized and/or death is negligible unless one has a co-morbidity.

Frankly, I don't get it.

PS... I am not an anti-vaxer. I have had all of my inoculations and plan to get the J&J vaccine when I am back in the US in June - for travel reasons as opposed to health reasons.
Doesn't it make sense to try to first contain a Virus and invest the majoriy of 'ressources in that, and then when it's contained, invest in eradicating it?

Ofc you still have to wear a mask.
Other than medical reasons: Imagine the additional workload if for example a sales assistant at migros has to check wether a person without mask is vaccinated or not.

You can still decide wether or not to vaccinate. Still your body and your choice. Choices have consequences though.
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  #24942  
Old 06.05.2021, 09:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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What happened in Seychelles? Indeed, other places with high vaccination rate see cases drop, WTF?
The Bloomberg item misses one important piece of information which is contained in this BBC article. Quote..:

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A third of the active cases involved people who had had two vaccine doses, the country's news agency said
So the incidence in the vaccinated population is some 50% lower than the unvaccinated thus roughly 50% effectiveness. About what I would expect from the Chinese vaccines, whatever they may claim.

Very good news from Israel about the Bîontech/Pfizer vaccine by the way - an Israeli study, effectively looking at the whoile population, has confirmed a 95% effectiveness for the vaccine after 2 doses.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-israel-study

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I did post some links in a very neutral way so that who ever whish can make his own decisions about it.

Now some of you guys , even you, want to start a fight with me about what is written in those articles, even I did not write them. I just pointed to them.
This is a forum. Part of it's very purpose is to DEBATE. No-one is "fighting" with you. But we are all free to take issue with what you post and debate that with you and everyone else.
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  #24943  
Old 06.05.2021, 09:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Hmm... your 2% figure I think is conflated as those who died with COVID as opposed to those who died from COVID.

And the long-term effects of lockdowns? Have you analyzed that? Tough to call since that will take time to assess... I sense that the long-term consequences on youth and the populace at large not good from a mental health and economic perspective.

As to your drinking/driving comment... Not sure how much relevance that has here. What about the abortion debate? Each woman is entitled to make her choice - her body/her choice. That to me is more relevant/applicable regarding the vaccine uptake.
It's lower than 2% of those infected (consensus is hardening at 0.5% to 0.7% but some of the newer variants seem to be increasing this, particularly impacting younger people). Your 0.02% of the global population is irrelevant on a number of grounds, particularly that only a fraction of the global population have been infected, also that there is massive undercounting (as there is very little testing) in most developing countries.

Overcounting of deaths (the with/of Covid thing) is minimal and certainly ourweighed by those dying from Covid after the usual 28 day cut-off. Also dying of Covid must include those dying of the consequences of Covid - heart attacks, strokes, etc.

On Vaccines, I take the view that it is our social obligation to get vaccinated to make sure we as a society protect those that are unable to get vaccinated or are immunocompromised and vaccines don't take. Plus even for younger people the risks of the vaccine are lower than the risks of Covid.
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  #24944  
Old 06.05.2021, 10:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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I spoke to a few people recently who said that they will avoid taking the vaccine as long as possible. Their reasoning was that to most fit people Corona hardly does anything, so they don't see the point in taking it. Don't shoot the messenger!

My personal view is that Corona worshippers and Corona deniers are both batshit crazy
Such valid points and totally agree. The (Swiss) fatalities for under 50yrs people since the start of Covid is less than sixty !!!

Of those sixty there seems to be no data on pre existing medical conditions but this risk is low enough for me to avoid vaccine for now.

Perhaps as winter approaches or foreign travel requires it as mandatory then I might opt to have.

I am SofaSafe currently
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  #24945  
Old 06.05.2021, 10:30
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Re: Coronavirus

Some good news from the vaccination front
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Doctors have successfully treated a patient who developed very rare blood clots after receiving the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine in early April using an alternative to heparin, which is a blood thinner experts advised against using, according to a new case report.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) briefly paused — and since restarted — the use of the single-dose Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine on April 13 to investigate several cases of a rare clotting disorder that occured after vaccination.

The pause was, in part, to make sure that doctors knew how to treat patients who developed a blood-clotting disorder known as thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) or vaccine-induced thrombotic thrombocytopenia (VITT). This rare syndrome involves blood clots in the veins of the brain and very low platelet counts.
https://www.livescience.com/johnson-...se-report.html
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  #24946  
Old 06.05.2021, 10:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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Such valid points and totally agree. The (Swiss) fatalities for under 50yrs people since the start of Covid is less than sixty !!!

Of those sixty there seems to be no data on pre existing medical conditions but this risk is low enough for me to avoid vaccine for now.

Perhaps as winter approaches or foreign travel requires it as mandatory then I might opt to have.

I am SofaSafe currently
Deaths are only part of it. Many people under 50yrs have been hospitalised, some of which have required the ICU. This uses hospital capacity. Many people under 50yrs who have not been hospitalised, but have taken the virus home with them and have infected their relatives over 50yrs who have then been hospitalised, taken ICU capacity and, regretfully, died.

So rather than just thinking about yourself, how about thinking about your relatives, friends and neighbours. Get you vaccine as soon as you can. The life you save may not be yours.
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  #24947  
Old 06.05.2021, 10:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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Such valid points and totally agree. The (Swiss) fatalities for under 50yrs people since the start of Covid is less than sixty !!!

Of those sixty there seems to be no data on pre existing medical conditions but this risk is low enough for me to avoid vaccine for now.

Perhaps as winter approaches or foreign travel requires it as mandatory then I might opt to have.

I am SofaSafe currently
I think the risk is more that you feel like crap for a week or two, and that you aren't impeded from going about your daily business. And as Bowlie says, you can pass to someone who isn't young and healthy....
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  #24948  
Old 06.05.2021, 10:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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I spoke to a few people recently who said that they will avoid taking the vaccine as long as possible. Their reasoning was that to most fit people Corona hardly does anything, so they don't see the point in taking it. Don't shoot the messenger!

My personal view is that Corona worshippers and Corona deniers are both batshit crazy
Great, that leaves more vaccines for the younger people that do want them. Everyone wins.

On the other hand, what is fit? The funniest thing I've heard is people taking several pills daily describing themselves as healthy and fit. Others eat only meat for health reasons. Others drink only fruit juices for a week to detox and improve health and fitness. In general, there's a crowd out there undernourished because fashion trends. I belong to the crowd that claims 2-3 wine bottles plus a few beers a week is healthy. So, is there an objective measure of fit and healthy? Surely doctors have one, but out in the wild the concept may be meaningless.
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Old 06.05.2021, 11:10
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Re: Coronavirus

Also, never let a good crisis go to waste, anytime is the perfect time to make a sale:

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Thai travel agencies offer COVID-19 'vaccine tours' to U.S. Bangkok tour operator, Unithai Trip, has packages from 75,000 baht to 200,000 baht ($2,400 to $6,400) for trips to San Francisco, Los Angeles and New York, with prices dependent on the time gap between doses. The United States is not the only destination offered to Thais. Another agency, Udachi, advertised a 23-day "VACCation in Russia" to receive the Sputnik V vaccine for up to 210,000 baht ($6,700).
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...us-2021-05-05/
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Old 06.05.2021, 11:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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On the other hand, what is fit?
You would need a whole thread for that

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Old 06.05.2021, 11:51
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Such valid points and totally agree. The (Swiss) fatalities for under 50yrs people since the start of Covid is less than sixty !!!:
So 60-odd deaths for perhaps one third of the population that have infected. Compared to 0 to perhaps 2 that might (repeat might) die from the vaccine.

The odds are pretty clear.
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  #24952  
Old 06.05.2021, 12:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Deaths are only part of it. Many people under 50yrs have been hospitalised, some of which have required the ICU. This uses hospital capacity. Many people under 50yrs who have not been hospitalised, but have taken the virus home with them and have infected their relatives over 50yrs who have then been hospitalised, taken ICU capacity and, regretfully, died.

So rather than just thinking about yourself, how about thinking about your relatives, friends and neighbours. Get you vaccine as soon as you can. The life you save may not be yours.
Firstly, it is my choice not to have the vaccine and don’t infer I am risking the lives of by not doing. Very crass remark.


I am observing distancing rules and wear a mask diligently on the occassional shopping trip (mostly online) I go very early in the morning so Coop very quiet.

I cannot visit any family back home as unable.

Regarding numbers - I am just stating data from official figures. Your reply vaguely refers to
“Some of which have required the ICU” [Data Source?]
and
“ Many have taken the virus home, infected their relatives over 50yrs who have then been hospitalised, taken ICU capacity and, regretfully, died.” [ Very spurious ramblings . Would it be pointless to ask you provide data?]

I am thinking about myself and others , hence I stay home and observe safety guidelines.
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  #24953  
Old 06.05.2021, 12:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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So 60-odd deaths for perhaps one third of the population that have infected. Compared to 0 to perhaps 2 that might (repeat might) die from the vaccine.

The odds are pretty clear.
If you are 18, it may be pretty marginal, for anyone over 30, it isn't. TBH I imagine most of the very young adults would be willing to put themselves at a tiny risk to protect everyone else, as well as their own small risk of getting ill.
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  #24954  
Old 06.05.2021, 12:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Firstly, it is my choice not to have the vaccine and don’t infer I am risking the lives of by not doing. Very crass remark.


I am observing distancing rules and wear a mask diligently on the occassional shopping trip (mostly online) I go very early in the morning so Coop very quiet.

I cannot visit any family back home as unable.

Regarding numbers - I am just stating data from official figures. Your reply vaguely refers to
“Some of which have required the ICU” and
“ Many have taken the virus home, infected their relatives over 50yrs who have then been hospitalised, taken ICU capacity and, regretfully, died.” [Very spurious ramblings . Would it be pointless to ask you provide data?]

I am thinking about myself and others , hence I stay home and observe safety guidelines.
You just are though. It may upset you, but its the truth. You may be reducing the risk by social distancing, but its still an unnecessary risk to others.

What is definitely the case is that people refusing the vaccine (even those diligently socially distancing) are delaying the normalisation and re-opening of society. You are basically being a free rider on the back of the majority of people who are willing to have the vaccine.
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  #24955  
Old 06.05.2021, 12:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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Firstly, it is my choice not to have the vaccine and don’t infer I am risking the lives of by not doing. Very crass remark.

I am observing distancing rules and wear a mask diligently on the occassional shopping trip (mostly online) I go very early in the morning so Coop very quiet.

I cannot visit any family back home as unable.

Regarding numbers - I am just stating data from official figures. Your reply vaguely refers to
“Some of which have required the ICU” [Data Source?]
and
“ Many have taken the virus home, infected their relatives over 50yrs who have then been hospitalised, taken ICU capacity and, regretfully, died.” [ Very spurious ramblings . Would it be pointless to ask you provide data?]

I am thinking about myself and others , hence I stay home and observe safety guidelines.
Don't take it personal. The general recommendation was for people in contact with family, friends and neighbors. If that's not the case, of course the general recommendation doesn't apply. Everyone has different life circumstances.
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  #24956  
Old 06.05.2021, 12:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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So 60-odd deaths for perhaps one third of the population that have infected. Compared to 0 to perhaps 2 that might (repeat might) die from the vaccine.

The odds are pretty clear.
Not if you're one of the 2 who do.

Fit and healthy? Hmmm, I'm healthy but not fit.
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  #24957  
Old 06.05.2021, 12:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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Firstly, it is my choice not to have the vaccine and don’t infer I am risking the lives of by not doing. Very crass remark.
You most certainly are potentially risking the health of yourself AND others by not getting vaccinated and if you think otherwise you are delusional... but then this should be a self-explanatory state of mind for any anti-vaxxer, who are either intentionally or unintentionally by definition also anti-science.

By not being vaccinated (without genuone medical reasons for not doing so) then you are a potential carrier than can then infect others when you go into public places, including people who may not be able to receive the vaccine for genuine medical reasons. If many people remain unvaccinated then there could potentially be a new wave.

So yeah, stop fooling yourself; you will be a potential risk to both yourself and others as long as you stay unvaccinated without a medical reason for doing so.

Last edited by Chuff; 06.05.2021 at 12:45.
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Old 06.05.2021, 12:36
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Re: Coronavirus

While I wish everybody would get vaccinated, I accept someone's choice not to. But please spare me the "guinea pig", "experiment", "brainwash" and "changing goalposts" stuff.
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Old 06.05.2021, 12:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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You most certainly are potentially risking the health of others by not getting vaccinated and if you think otherwise you are delusional... but then this should be a self-explanatory state of mind for any anti-vaxxer, who are either intentionally or unintentionally by definition also anti-science. By not being vaccinated without genione medical reasons for not doing so then you are a potential carrier than can then infect others when you go into public places, including people who may not be able to receive the vaccine for genuine medical reasons. If many people remain unvaccinated then there could potentially be a new wave.

So yeah, stop fooling yourself; you will be a potential risk to others as long as you stay unvaccinated.
There's people that live like outcasts, there's people that get depressed without interacting with friends in a daily manner. Who do you think needs the vaccine more? If vaccinated, who has a greater effect on contagion chains?

Since this is the internet, mutual incomprehension is the normal. The outcast cannot understand people have friends and visit them regularly, the people with friends and family cannot even imagine someone living alone.
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Old 06.05.2021, 12:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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There's people that live like outcasts, there's people that get depressed without interacting with friends in a daily manner. Who do you think needs the vaccine more? If vaccinated, who has a greater effect on contagion chains?

Since this is the internet, mutual incomprehension is the normal. The outcast cannot understand people have friends and visit them regularly, the people with friends and family cannot even imagine someone living alone.
What you wrote is a heap of fluff and makes little logical sense. Lakeswimmer said they goes out in public, therefore they are a risk. End of story.
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