Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26361  
Old 16.06.2021, 11:51
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,324
Groaned at 493 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 3,266 Times in 1,417 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I'm not entirely sure that's true - a range of ages support the plan. It baffles me why you persist with this notion of "fearmongering". Do you honestly think Covid has been nothing at all to worry about? You may be all right, Jack, but many others have not been. Long Covid is no joke either.
For the most part and for most people, yes. The longer this pandemic has gone on, the more it's become clear that whilst you wouldn't want to catch Covid, the threat it poses is not nearly as severe as first feared. The average age of people dying of Covid in the US is 78, in the UK it's 82, in Canada it's 85. In Switzerland there's been less than 250 Covid deaths for people under 60, for people under 50 it drops to 52. Now that vaccines are readily available, I don't even give Covid a second thought anymore, other than how lockdown restrictions are going to impact on my life.

I'm even very cautious about the threat posed by the mysterious "long Covid". Is it really something other than normal post-viral fatigue? Certainly it requires further study. As an example, a pre-print paper released last month found that in teens there was no difference in symptoms attributed to long-Covid between those who had had the virus and those that hadn't.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1257037v1.full
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #26362  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 4,820
Groaned at 242 Times in 176 Posts
Thanked 6,537 Times in 3,083 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
For the most part and for most people, yes. The longer this pandemic has gone on, the more it's become clear that whilst you wouldn't want to catch Covid, the threat it poses is not nearly as severe as first feared. The average age of people dying of Covid in the US is 78, in the UK it's 82, in Canada it's 85. In Switzerland there's been less than 250 Covid deaths for people under 60, for people under 50 it drops to 52. Now that vaccines are readily available, I don't even give Covid a second thought anymore, other than how lockdown restrictions are going to impact on my life.

I'm even very cautious about the threat posed by the mysterious "long Covid". Is it really something other than normal post-viral fatigue? Certainly it requires further study. As an example, a pre-print paper released last month found that in teens there was no difference in symptoms attributed to long-Covid between those who had had the virus and those that hadn't.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1257037v1.full
This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #26363  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:10
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,324
Groaned at 493 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 3,266 Times in 1,417 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.
Yes, I know which why I specifically said it was a preprint. I lost count of how many times I've said it, but just because a paper is a pre-print, shouldn't preclude it from being referenced on this level. Peer review takes time and this was only released a month ago. Indeed, there are preprints I've posted links to on this thread when they were first released that have since been peer reviewed and published in scientific journals.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #26364  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:11
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,554
Groaned at 470 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 19,349 Times in 10,216 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
For the most part and for most people, yes. The longer this pandemic has gone on, the more it's become clear that whilst you wouldn't want to catch Covid, the threat it poses is not nearly as severe as first feared. The average age of people dying of Covid in the US is 78, in the UK it's 82, in Canada it's 85. In Switzerland there's been less than 250 Covid deaths for people under 60, for people under 50 it drops to 52. Now that vaccines are readily available, I don't even give Covid a second thought anymore, other than how lockdown restrictions are going to impact on my life.

I'm even very cautious about the threat posed by the mysterious "long Covid". Is it really something other than normal post-viral fatigue? Certainly it requires further study. As an example, a pre-print paper released last month found that in teens there was no difference in symptoms attributed to long-Covid between those who had had the virus and those that hadn't.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1257037v1.full
This study ignores cardiac inflammation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #26365  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: In your head
Posts: 375
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 1,159 Times in 413 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
For the most part and for most people, yes. The longer this pandemic has gone on, the more it's become clear that whilst you wouldn't want to catch Covid, the threat it poses is not nearly as severe as first feared. The average age of people dying of Covid in the US is 78, in the UK it's 82, in Canada it's 85. In Switzerland there's been less than 250 Covid deaths for people under 60, for people under 50 it drops to 52. Now that vaccines are readily available, I don't even give Covid a second thought anymore, other than how lockdown restrictions are going to impact on my life.

I'm even very cautious about the threat posed by the mysterious "long Covid". Is it really something other than normal post-viral fatigue? Certainly it requires further study. As an example, a pre-print paper released last month found that in teens there was no difference in symptoms attributed to long-Covid between those who had had the virus and those that hadn't.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1257037v1.full

This is your view. Mine is very different.

Long Covid is much more than post-viral fatigue. A friend of mine has been left with scarring on her lungs and now needs an inhaler regularly. Her case of Covid was classed as mild.

Those average ages look wrong. I'm not sure where you are getting this stuff from - nor do I care to know - but it's quite clear to me that you are looking to confirm your bias. As we know, stats can be dredged up to "explain/support" pretty much anything.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank RufusB for this useful post:
  #26366  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:31
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 13,026
Groaned at 221 Times in 188 Posts
Thanked 21,496 Times in 8,810 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
This is your view. Mine is very different.

Long Covid is much more than post-viral fatigue. A friend of mine has been left with scarring on her lungs and now needs an inhaler regularly. He case of Covid was classed as mild.
My 36 year old niece would also beg to differ. She is now seven months post-Covid and is still suffering from serious consequences.
She can’t work, she can barely walk to the end of the street and she can’t do much with her seven year old son.
She was completely fit and well before contracting Covid, not overweight, no other health issues or comorbidities at all.

Sure, most young people do get over Covid pretty easily but there are plenty who don’t and I don’t think they should be dismissed lightly.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
  #26367  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:37
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,324
Groaned at 493 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 3,266 Times in 1,417 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
This is your view. Mine is very different.

Long Covid is much more than post-viral fatigue. A friend of mine has been left with scarring on her lungs and now needs an inhaler regularly. Her case of Covid was classed as mild.

Those average ages look wrong. I'm not sure where you are getting this stuff from - nor do I care to know - but it's quite clear to me that you are looking to confirm your bias. As we know, stats can be dredged up to "explain/support" pretty much anything.
I'm not saying "long Covid" isn't real, just that it needs far more study. As an example, look at Boris Johnson, he was in ICU yet has made a full recovery. Of course it affects people in different ways but I don't think Covid warrants the alarm many have, especially now we have vaccines.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #26368  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:40
Ato Ato is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,472
Groaned at 15 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 2,717 Times in 1,103 Posts
Ato has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I'm not saying "long Covid" isn't real, just that it needs far more study. As an example, look at Boris Johnson, he was in ICU yet has made a full recovery. Of course it affects people in different ways but I don't think Covid warrants the alarm many have, especially now we have vaccines.
I'm not so sure, he looks like crap.
Looking crap might be a pre-existing condition though.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Ato for this useful post:
  #26369  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:41
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,930
Groaned at 37 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,944 Times in 1,830 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
A new study of almost 2 million COVID-19 patients for the prevalence of post-COVID conditions [Long Covid]
Indeed, data does not lie. But, not sure if long covid is just mismanaged expectations.

After all, covid19 is a risky illness that can kill you, so weeks and months for full recovery should not be a surprise. It's even normal for other risky respiratory conditions like pneumonia.


https://www.blf.org.uk/support-for-y...monia/recovery

I mean a broken bone takes months to heal, ligaments are even slower, why people believe scared lungs recover from one week to the next?
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #26370  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:48
Ato Ato is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,472
Groaned at 15 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 2,717 Times in 1,103 Posts
Ato has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Indeed, data does not lie. But, not sure if long covid is just mismanaged expectations.

After all, covid19 is a risky illness that can kill you, so weeks and months for full recovery should not be a surprise. It's even normal for other risky respiratory conditions like pneumonia.


https://www.blf.org.uk/support-for-y...monia/recovery

I mean a broken bone takes months to heal, ligaments are even slower, why people believe scared lungs recover from one week to the next?
Could be because some people compared it to a nasty cold and so people are expecting it to fix up like a nasty cold.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Ato for this useful post:
  #26371  
Old 16.06.2021, 12:55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: In your head
Posts: 375
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 1,159 Times in 413 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I'm not saying "long Covid" isn't real, just that it needs far more study. As an example, look at Boris Johnson, he was in ICU yet has made a full recovery. Of course it affects people in different ways but I don't think Covid warrants the alarm many have, especially now we have vaccines.

You may not think that. Thankfully you aren't making the decisions.


Quote:
View Post
Indeed, data does not lie. But, not sure if long covid is just mismanaged expectations.

After all, covid19 is a risky illness that can kill you, so weeks and months for full recovery should not be a surprise. It's even normal for other risky respiratory conditions like pneumonia.


https://www.blf.org.uk/support-for-y...monia/recovery

I mean a broken bone takes months to heal, ligaments are even slower, why people believe scared lungs recover from one week to the next?
My aforementioned friend was barely ill at all with Covid. She'd caught it because her work hadn't allowed for appropriate social distancing. The long covid symptoms - and effects - havd been far worse. So no, I don't think it's a case of mismanaged expectations.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank RufusB for this useful post:
  #26372  
Old 16.06.2021, 13:14
kngavl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bärn
Posts: 712
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 758 Times in 323 Posts
kngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
You may not think that. Thankfully you aren't making the decisions.




My aforementioned friend was barely ill at all with Covid. She'd caught it because her work hadn't allowed for appropriate social distancing. The long covid symptoms - and effects - havd been far worse. So no, I don't think it's a case of mismanaged expectations.
My work colleague caught it at the end of March (middle aged, no health problems), tested negative at the end of April, never went to the hospital but has had a fever every single day up until last week. They haven't been back at work since March and they're in no capacity to be working until later this year at this point. Screw having a persistent fever (plus other things) for 2 months after you test negative ....

Another friend of a friend still has no sense of taste 8 months after they got the virus.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank kngavl for this useful post:
  #26373  
Old 16.06.2021, 13:16
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,930
Groaned at 37 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,944 Times in 1,830 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
My aforementioned friend was barely ill at all with Covid. She'd caught it because her work hadn't allowed for appropriate social distancing. The long covid symptoms - and effects - havd been far worse. So no, I don't think it's a case of mismanaged expectations.
Sorry for your friend.

We've been told for 18 months "this virus is different and dangerous". Then some scientist found lung injuries in asymptomatic patients of covid19. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462877/

That means that our bodies fight this new thing, scars are left and we don't even feel it. So, without CT scans and other medical sorcery, the barely ill self-assessment is a bit disingenuous. There are several deadly asymptomatic problems (early blood pressure, early diabetes, cancer, etc.) and somehow we cannot believe mild or simply NO covid19 symptoms could be observed while our innards are being destroyed.
Reply With Quote
  #26374  
Old 16.06.2021, 13:35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Basel
Posts: 319
Groaned at 21 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 482 Times in 201 Posts
Polymath has a reputation beyond reputePolymath has a reputation beyond reputePolymath has a reputation beyond reputePolymath has a reputation beyond reputePolymath has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
For the most part and for most people, yes. The longer this pandemic has gone on, the more it's become clear that whilst you wouldn't want to catch Covid, the threat it poses is not nearly as severe as first feared. The average age of people dying of Covid in the US is 78, in the UK it's 82, in Canada it's 85. In Switzerland there's been less than 250 Covid deaths for people under 60, for people under 50 it drops to 52. Now that vaccines are readily available, I don't even give Covid a second thought anymore, other than how lockdown restrictions are going to impact on my life.

I'm even very cautious about the threat posed by the mysterious "long Covid". Is it really something other than normal post-viral fatigue? Certainly it requires further study. As an example, a pre-print paper released last month found that in teens there was no difference in symptoms attributed to long-Covid between those who had had the virus and those that hadn't.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1257037v1.full
Quote:
View Post
My 36 year old niece would also beg to differ. She is now seven months post-Covid and is still suffering from serious consequences.
She can’t work, she can barely walk to the end of the street and she can’t do much with her seven year old son.
She was completely fit and well before contracting Covid, not overweight, no other health issues or comorbidities at all.

Sure, most young people do get over Covid pretty easily but there are plenty who don’t and I don’t think they should be dismissed lightly.
'Long covid' or post-covid syndrome as it's formally known appears to be a catch-all phrase for a plethora of symptoms that researchers are still trying to understand.

Post-viral fatigue may be a subset of these symptoms but not the whole story.

Quote:
Not all of the suffering badged as long covid is actually caused by SARS-CoV-2. Even before the virus came along lots of young and healthy people would develop similarly debilitating symptoms for medically unexplained reasons. The classic example of such a mystery illness is chronic-fatigue syndrome (CFS), which often seems to follow a viral or bacterial infection. Chronic migraines and other symptoms often seen in long covid would, in normal years, also strike lots of people out of the blue. The data do, nevertheless, suggest that the effects of long covid are swamping this symptomatic background. Researchers in Britain compared the persistence of a dozen typical long-covid symptoms in nearly 22,000 people who had tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 with the rates of these symptoms in a similar group with no record or likelihood of having been infected. In both, many people got better as time passed (see chart 2). But after 12 weeks the rate of symptoms in the covid-19 group was eight times higher than in the uninfected group.

[...]

Broadly speaking, there are three types of long-covid patients, says Avindra Nath of America’s National Institutes of Health. The first are characterised by “exercise intolerance”, meaning they feel out of breath and exhausted from even small tasks involving physical activity. The second are characterised by cognitive complaints in the form of brain fog and memory problems. The third are characterised by problems with the autonomic nervous system, a set of nerves that control things like heartbeat, breathing and digestion. Patients in this group suffer from symptoms such as heart palpitations and dizziness.

Impairments of the autonomic nervous system are known as dysautonomia, an umbrella term for a variety of syndromes. Igor Koralnik of Northwestern Memorial Hospital, in Chicago, who has been treating long-covid patients with neurological symptoms, says there has been a marked increase in dysautonomia since the pandemic began. David Putrino, director of rehabilitation innovation at Mount Sinai Hospital, in New York, says that roughly 80% of people who show up at his long-covid clinic have symptoms that are “dysautonomia-like”, regardless of the underlying cause. “And by far these symptoms are the most debilitating, so if we rehabilitate them we can often make the biggest impact in people’s lives.”

Based on these patterns of symptoms, and various laboratory tests of long-covid patients, doctors are focusing on three possible biological explanations. One is that long covid is a persistent viral infection. A second is that it is an autoimmune disorder. The third is that it is a consequence of tissue damage caused by inflammation during the initial, acute infection.

According to the first of these hypotheses, some patients never clear the virus completely. They are not infectious, says Dr Nath, so it could be that they harbour some altered form of the pathogen which is not replicating and is thus undetectable by the standard test for SARS-CoV-2, but is nevertheless making some viral product that their bodies are trying to fight off. This sort of thing is known to occur with other viruses, including measles, dengue and Ebola. RNA viruses, of which SARS-CoV-2 is an example, are particularly prone to this phenomenon, says Dr Nath.

Proof of this hypothesis is lacking, but there are pertinent clues. Researchers are looking for SARS-CoV-2 or its products in all sorts of fluids and tissues from people with prior infection. There is already evidence that the virus can persist in the body, though the data are predominantly from those who did not develop long covid. A study published recently in Nature showed that some people had traces of SARS-CoV-2 proteins in their intestines four months after they had recovered from acute covid-19. Viral products from SARS-CoV-2 have also been found in people’s urine several months after their recovery. Dr Putrino says viral material has been detected in stool samples from some patients in his long-covid clinic, but not all.

The second hypothesised mechanism for long covid, that it is an autoimmune disease, holds that the virus, though gone, has caused something to go awry with the immune system—which now attacks some of the body’s own tissues. A growing body of evidence backs this idea, too.

Bad reactions
The immune system is a complex machine, with many cellular and molecular components, any of which might break and cause symptoms. Some of those suffering from long covid have badly behaving macrophages, the cells responsible for detecting and engulfing harmful invaders. Others exhibit abnormal activation of their B-cells—white blood cells which churn out custom-made antibodies to gum up specific pathogens. In these cases, their B-cells seem to make an unusual quantity and variety of “auto-antibodies”, which attack the body’s own cells instead of invaders. Others still have low levels of interferons, a group of molecules involved in fighting off viral infections. And some have problems with their T-cells, which are parts of the immune system that have the jobs of destroying infected cells and alerting B-cells to the presence of pathogens, so that appropriate antibodies can be made.

Several studies have found reduced T-cell counts in people who have had acute covid-19, and also that their surviving T-cells are “exhausted”—meaning they mount only a weak response to infections. Laboratory studies by Dr Koralnik’s team have found that long-covid patients with brain fog have different T-cell responses from those of people who were once infected but are now asymptomatic.

All of this suggests that some individuals cannot fight the virus off completely, or that parts of their immune systems act in ways that may be detrimental to their bodies. Some doctors think people who are already vulnerable to developing an autoimmune condition are pushed further in that direction by the stress which covid-19 puts on their bodies. Such disorders are typically diagnosed in middle age, which is consistent with the age-peak found by King’s College, and are more common in women—as is, albeit to a lesser extent, long covid.

The third hypothesis about the cause of long covid, inflammation, holds that the fight put up by the body against the acute illness causes irreparable collateral damage. This often happens during a viral infection, but it could be particularly likely with covid-19. Out-of-control inflammation, caused by cytokines (molecules that drum up inflammation) is a hallmark of the illness.

One guess is that the inflammation which happens when people are ill somehow damages parts of their autonomic nervous systems. Another suggestion, made by Dr Koralnik, is that in some patients SARS-CoV-2 may damage the cells that line blood vessels, either by infecting them directly or via inflammation. This would change the way blood flows to the brain, and may thus explain the brain fog.

Whys and wherefores
Studies intended to investigate each of these possibilities are under way. But the three theories are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, most researchers agree that long covid is probably a term which embraces several conditions with different causes.

[...]

Some of those with long covid have felt dramatically better after a covid-19 vaccination. But the relief tends to be temporary. Doctors have seen this before. People with CFS, for example, sometimes feel temporarily better after a flu shot or other vaccination. Nobody knows why. One possibility is that the revved-up immune system alleviates their symptoms for a time. A placebo effect may also be involved. Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University, has proposed clinical trials of covid-19 vaccines for long covid. She argues that seeing which work, even if only for a short time, may unmask the specific immune abnormality involved—and show what sorts of drugs could work as well.

At the moment, the only treatment is rehabilitation. To design protocols for long covid, Dr Putrino’s team have been working with experts on disorders with similar symptoms, including dysautonomia, CFS and Lyme disease. “We’ve tried to be extremely symptom-centric,” he says. “We try to dig through a person’s life and understand what is causing the biggest triggers [of symptoms] that interfere most with their daily life.”

He describes some typical examples. Many patients come in having lost a lot of weight because if they have a full meal “their symptoms just wash over them and that’s it for the day.” That is common in dysautonomia, whereby stretching of the stomach causes an autonomic-nervous-system reaction. These patients are advised by nutritionists on how to eat smaller, nutritious meals and to find out what foods are easiest on them. Some patients experience a drop in blood pressure when they move about, and feel dizzy—another hallmark of dysautonomia. Simply wearing compressive stockings to prevent blood pooling in their legs can help these people a lot. So can avoiding going outdoors in hot and humid weather. Those with extreme fatigue are taught how to watch for “energy windows”, in which to do the most important tasks of the day.

Dr Putrino’s team have identified another common problem. They tested25 of their long-covid patients and found that all had carbon-dioxide levels which were too low. This may sound surprising, given that CO2 is a waste product derived from respiration, and is harmful if present in too high a concentration. But it also helps regulate acidity, and incorrect acidity can disrupt all sorts of metabolic processes. Low CO2 levels are also often seen in dysautonomia and CFS. The solution is breathing exercises to help with CO2 retention. (Elsewhere, opera singers are teaching long-covid patients helpful breathing techniques.)

At Dr Koralnik’s neurology clinic, the approach is similar. Long-covid patients are first assessed to see whether their specific problem is memory, attention, fluency in word finding, “or whatever they may have that could be different than someone else who also has brain fog”. Cognitive rehabilitation is then tailored to their needs.

It is painstaking work. After an average of 150 days of rehab, which includes two half-hour sessions each week with a therapist, plus remote follow-up, Dr Putrino’s patients report a 30-40% improvement in fatigue levels. Such improvement was not seen in comparable patients who were not undergoing rehab, so his team are confident that the effect is real. But out of about 100 patients whose outcomes are being monitored for research purposes, only three say they have recovered fully.
The upshot is that post-covid syndrome is not something to be dismissed lightly.

Well worth a read of the full article here: https://www.economist.com/science-an...-on-long-covid
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Polymath for this useful post:
  #26375  
Old 16.06.2021, 13:39
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: LaCote
Posts: 1,053
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 719 Posts
Sigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond reputeSigh has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Todays published numbers 282 out of 19 k tests

19 hospitalisations
6 death

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview

Compared to last week wednesday

429 out of 17 k tests

31 hospitalisations
4 death

Last edited by Sigh; 16.06.2021 at 15:47.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Sigh for this useful post:
  #26376  
Old 16.06.2021, 14:17
fduvall's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Used to be Zurich
Posts: 1,582
Groaned at 48 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,631 Times in 760 Posts
fduvall has a reputation beyond reputefduvall has a reputation beyond reputefduvall has a reputation beyond reputefduvall has a reputation beyond reputefduvall has a reputation beyond reputefduvall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

I would find a silver lining in this if "Long Covid" being a recognized illness would lead to "chronic Lyme" also being recognized as real. There are countless other chronic conditions that are ignored that need to be acknowledged, funded and treated by healthcare providers.


Quote:
View Post
'Long covid' or post-covid syndrome as it's formally known appears to be a catch-all phrase for a plethora of symptoms that researchers are still trying to understand.

Post-viral fatigue may be a subset of these symptoms but not the whole story.



The upshot is that post-covid syndrome is not something to be dismissed lightly.

Well worth a read of the full article here: https://www.economist.com/science-an...-on-long-covid
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank fduvall for this useful post:
  #26377  
Old 16.06.2021, 14:31
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,930
Groaned at 37 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,944 Times in 1,830 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Well worth a read of the full article here: https://www.economist.com/science-an...-on-long-covid
Just read the economist article. Worrying because the problems exist, not so worrying because there's some previous knowledge on what might be the cause and how to tackle them.

As fduvall mentioned, is the people mentioned in the comments above getting the needed care?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #26378  
Old 16.06.2021, 14:41
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,139
Groaned at 86 Times in 82 Posts
Thanked 18,800 Times in 8,379 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I would find a silver lining in this if "Long Covid" being a recognized illness would lead to "chronic Lyme" also being recognized as real. There are countless other chronic conditions that are ignored that need to be acknowledged, funded and treated by healthcare providers.
100% agree. I know so many cases where the medical professionals have decided the patient with a chronic condition is a drama queen/king or it's all in his/her head.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #26379  
Old 16.06.2021, 15:12
bossybaby's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Western Austria
Posts: 296
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 539 Times in 223 Posts
bossybaby has an excellent reputationbossybaby has an excellent reputationbossybaby has an excellent reputationbossybaby has an excellent reputation
Re: Coronavirus

The horrible thing about long Covid is when it happens to a young person. (Never mind the ICU costs.) I'm sure economists have calculated what it costs (in GDP/productivity, etc.) to have young people worldwide simply drop out of the workforce because of this. It's far more damaging to economies than if an 80+-year-old gets sick or dies, because that worker would have had decades of contributions to give. The new data are really frightening.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank bossybaby for this useful post:
  #26380  
Old 16.06.2021, 16:35
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,554
Groaned at 470 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 19,349 Times in 10,216 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Indeed, data does not lie. But, not sure if long covid is just mismanaged expectations.

After all, covid19 is a risky illness that can kill you, so weeks and months for full recovery should not be a surprise. It's even normal for other risky respiratory conditions like pneumonia.


https://www.blf.org.uk/support-for-y...monia/recovery

I mean a broken bone takes months to heal, ligaments are even slower, why people believe scared lungs recover from one week to the next?
Mucus is not a covid symptom
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coronavirus Jokes makeabigwish Daily life 201 22.07.2021 21:30
Coronavirus closed janvier Forum support 18 01.11.2020 13:12
Paid holidays and coronavirus Curtiss Employment 2 20.04.2020 09:22
Coronavirus scammers are out there - be warned Medea Fleecestealer Daily life 9 18.04.2020 18:53
Leaving Switzerland for UK during coronavirus barkingtreewolf Leaving Switzerland 19 11.04.2020 11:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0