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Old 03.07.2021, 10:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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  #27002  
Old 03.07.2021, 10:52
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Re: Coronavirus

Does anyone happen to know if many or most of the people who have died of Covid or become very sick from it in the UK, despite having been fully vaccinated, had received the AstraZeneca vaccine? In other words, is the AZ vaccine being attributed to the reason why some people in the UK have become quite sick from Covid despite being fully vaccinated?

I guess I ask because I keep seeing new recommendations for people who have had the first AZ dose to follow that up with a Pfizer or Moderna shot rather than getting a second dose of AZ. And I was wondering if that new recommendation is in part due to the fact that people who have had both doses of AZ are now becoming sick with Covid? (No idea... Just wondering).
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Old 03.07.2021, 10:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Does anyone happen to know if many or most of the people who have died of Covid or become very sick from it in the UK, despite having been fully vaccinated, had received the AstraZeneca vaccine? In other words, is the AZ vaccine being attributed to the reason why some people in the UK have become quite sick from Covid despite being fully vaccinated?

I guess I ask because I keep seeing new recommendations for people who have had the first AZ dose to follow that up with a Pfizer or Moderna shot rather than getting a second dose of AZ. And I was wondering if that new recommendation is in part due to the fact that people who have had both doses of AZ are now becoming sick with Covid? (No idea... Just wondering).
Tests have shown that 2 different vaccines, 1 for each dose is better than 2 doses of a single vaccine. The Russians worked that out with the Sputnik vaccine.
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Old 03.07.2021, 10:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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Does anyone happen to know if many or most of the people who have died of Covid or become very sick from it in the UK, despite having been fully vaccinated, had received the AstraZeneca vaccine? In other words, is the AZ vaccine being attributed to the reason why some people in the UK have become quite sick from Covid despite being fully vaccinated?

I guess I ask because I keep seeing new recommendations for people who have had the first AZ dose to follow that up with a Pfizer or Moderna shot rather than getting a second dose of AZ. And I was wondering if that new recommendation is in part due to the fact that people who have had both doses of AZ are now becoming sick with Covid? (No idea... Just wondering).
Here's another article that tackles the subject: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57610998
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Old 03.07.2021, 11:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tests have shown that 2 different vaccines, 1 for each dose is better than 2 doses of a single vaccine. The Russians worked that out with the Sputnik vaccine.
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Here's another article that tackles the subject: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57610998
Thanks. I just wasn't sure if it was due to AstraZeneca (since I know/think a lot of people in the UK have received AZ as their vaccine). But from what FMFs said, it looks like it's not so much a matter of the AZ vax alone as it is that two different forms of the vaccine are more beneficial in general. And as specified in Olygirl's link, unfortunately, being fully vaccinated doesn't mean that someone can't still become very sick if they get Covid -- regardless of what vaccine they had received.

I guess part of the reason I was thinking it applied mainly to the AZ vax is because yesterday I had come across an article where Angela Merkel was advising people who had received their first dose of the AZ vax to then follow that up with Pfizer or Moderna instead of a second dose of AZ. So I guess that's why I was (wrongly) thinking that it applied only to cases where the first dose was AZ.
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Old 03.07.2021, 11:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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Thanks. I just wasn't sure if it was due to AstraZeneca (since I know/think a lot of people in the UK have received AZ as their vaccine). But from what FMFs said, it looks like it's not so much a matter of the AZ vax alone as it is that two different forms of the vaccine are more beneficial in general. And as specified in Olygirl's link, unfortunately, being fully vaccinated doesn't mean that someone can't still become very sick if they get Covid -- regardless of what vaccine they had received.

I guess part of the reason I was thinking it applied mainly to the AZ vax is because yesterday I had come across an article where Angela Merkel was advising people who had received their first dose of the AZ vax to then follow that up with Pfizer or Moderna instead of a second dose of AZ. So I guess that's why I was (wrongly) thinking that it applied only to cases where the first dose was AZ.
None of the linked articles shows a breakdown of deaths by vaccine .

So it is still entirely possible that some vaccines are not preventing deaths to the degree that is expected .
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Old 03.07.2021, 11:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Does anyone happen to know if many or most of the people who have died of Covid or become very sick from it in the UK, despite having been fully vaccinated, had received the AstraZeneca vaccine? In other words, is the AZ vaccine being attributed to the reason why some people in the UK have become quite sick from Covid despite being fully vaccinated?

I guess I ask because I keep seeing new recommendations for people who have had the first AZ dose to follow that up with a Pfizer or Moderna shot rather than getting a second dose of AZ. And I was wondering if that new recommendation is in part due to the fact that people who have had both doses of AZ are now becoming sick with Covid? (No idea... Just wondering).
No vaccine is 100% against Covid but the ones dying who've been hospitalised are massively higher in those with no or one dose rather than two.

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Out of 33,000 cases analysed by PHE and confirmed to be the Delta variant since February, 223 have been admitted to hospital - most were unvaccinated or had only had only dose, and 20 people were fully vaccinated.'

So no, more vaccinated aren't getting ill/dying than unvaccinated not by a long shot.
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Old 03.07.2021, 11:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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So no, more vaccinated aren't getting ill/dying than unvaccinated not by a long shot.
I'm not sure if that ^^^ was directed toward me, but my comment wasn't intended to imply that I think more people who have received the vaccine die or become ill from Covid than those who have not received a vaccine. I was just wondering if, in the cases where people who have died or become very ill despite being vaccinated, if it was somehow related to them having received the AstraZeneca vaccine (rather than Moderna or Pfizer). But that doesn't appear to be the case.
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  #27009  
Old 03.07.2021, 12:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not sure if that ^^^ was directed toward me, but my comment wasn't intended to imply that I think more people who have received the vaccine die or become ill from Covid than those who have not received a vaccine. I was just wondering if, in the cases where people who have died or become very ill despite being vaccinated, if it was somehow related to them having received the AstraZeneca vaccine (rather than Moderna or Pfizer). But that doesn't appear to be the case.
I suspect anyone who had 2 x AZ will get a booster of Pfizer or Modena when the time comes. This additional benefit has been seen with other vaccines in the past too, probably why the Russians did it from the beginning with Sputnik.

Pleased to see most European countries are now making significant progress with their vaccination programme.

I am flying into Geneva today & in theory don't need a PCR test as I have an EU Vaccination certificate. I got one just in case as the last thing I wanted was a troublesome check in agent, who was happy I had both.
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Old 03.07.2021, 13:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am flying into Geneva today & in theory don't need a PCR test as I have an EU Vaccination certificate. I got one just in case as the last thing I wanted was a troublesome check in agent, who was happy I had both.
My experience so far is that they are still fairly liberal in checking people. I expect this will be tightened up over time.

I recently entered Spain and showed my QR code, and the agent on duty said, fine. He didn't even scan it.

Only afterwards did I realize I had loaded the wrong code and it was actually an expired one from an earlier trip.
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Old 03.07.2021, 13:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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None of the linked articles shows a breakdown of deaths by vaccine .

So it is still entirely possible that some vaccines are not preventing deaths to the degree that is expected .
Unfortunately, research is still in its early stages which is why scientists can't confirm or deny. However, statistics seem to show that deaths due to the Delta variant among the vaccinated are far less than the unvaccinated.

I'm personally disappointed that deaths are still happening despite being vaccinated but comforted that the risk of dying from the Dela variant is still very low.
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Old 03.07.2021, 13:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Does anyone happen to know if many or most of the people who have died of Covid or become very sick from it in the UK, despite having been fully vaccinated, had received the AstraZeneca vaccine? In other words, is the AZ vaccine being attributed to the reason why some people in the UK have become quite sick from Covid despite being fully vaccinated?

I guess I ask because I keep seeing new recommendations for people who have had the first AZ dose to follow that up with a Pfizer or Moderna shot rather than getting a second dose of AZ. And I was wondering if that new recommendation is in part due to the fact that people who have had both doses of AZ are now becoming sick with Covid? (No idea... Just wondering).
Most of the really old people got Pfizer.

It has to remembered that the 50 people who died in the uk is a minute number and includes heavily immunocompromised people who were at the end of their lives. Unofficially they are doing a managed let it rip now to get to herd immunity.

Headline Death rate from delta in the UK including unvaccinated people is 0.1%.
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  #27013  
Old 03.07.2021, 13:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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Most of the really old people got Pfizer.

It has to remembered that the 50 people who died in the uk is a minute number and includes heavily immunocompromised people who were at the end of their lives. Unofficially they are doing a managed let it rip now to get to herd immunity.
I'm not sure of the orders of magnitude here, but I would expect that if you have a situation where you let Darwin work it out, that is, no vaccines, then a particularly bad virus might brutally decimate the compromised parts of the population, resulting in a peaking of mortality among the said group. But with the worst suspects being thinned out, mortality should be lower for a couple of years after that, until things catch up again.

Seems a logical presumption to me.

So if the first wave of COVID carried many of them off (most people were still unvaccinated then, remember) then even a more lethal virus variant should struggle to have a similar effect so shortly afterwards. Even without vaccination. But now we're in a situation with vaccination. And the groups most at risk also have the highest vaccination rates.

So either the first wave of COVID wasn't as deadly as is being made out ... or there is something else happening here that we haven't quite got worked out yet.
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Old 03.07.2021, 15:25
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Re: Coronavirus

Just some thoughts. I hope somebody can help with some context here.

1) people who are fully vaccinated can still carry and transmit the virus
1b) this includes the delta variant
2) many countries are accepting vaccination certificates as alternatives to covid tests. So vaccinated people can easily enter another country and spread the virus there.
3) what happens if you get vaccinated when you actually have COVID? A test is not required to access vaccination. Could this cause severe symptoms?
4) with vaccination certificates having an expiry date, does this mean the real risk of getting COVID increases the further back your vaccination is?
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Old 03.07.2021, 15:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just some thoughts. I hope somebody can help with some context here.

1) people who are fully vaccinated can still carry and transmit the virus
1b) this includes the delta variant
2) many countries are accepting vaccination certificates as alternatives to covid tests. So vaccinated people can easily enter another country and spread the virus there.
3) what happens if you get vaccinated when you actually have COVID? A test is not required to access vaccination. Could this cause severe symptoms?
4) with vaccination certificates having an expiry date, does this mean the real risk of getting COVID increases the further back your vaccination is?
Interesting questions, I think this brings up lots of gray areas where we simply do not know…..maybe no context to help, but anyway.

For 1 and 1b, yes, it would seem so, but…nothing conclusive…
2, yes….but again, there isn’t enough info about spread.
3 this is interesting….anecdotal info suggests that people who’ve had covid react more strongly on average to the vax. how does that apply to active covid? Don’t know. But then, there was more anecdotal reporting that the vax helped with long covid to some degree.

4. The expiration date is more political administrative than scientifically based. I’ve read reports where immunity ranges from 6 months to 2 years and I’ve not seen any breakdowns by demographic groups.

I had my second vax mid April and early this week, had a horrible cold/virus, whatever. So I had a covid test….negative, luckily. The doctor told me that my vax was 90% effective, so I had a 10% chance of having covid, 20% if it was the delta variant. This is the back of the envelope thinking people are using.
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Old 03.07.2021, 16:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just some thoughts. I hope somebody can help with some context here.

1) people who are fully vaccinated can still carry and transmit the virus
1b) this includes the delta variant
I think for both of these the answer is "We don't know". It is suspected, but hasn't been observed from fully vaccinated people two weeks later. The science sorta argues against it. If you are not infected, how do you produce the virus to spread it.

Perhaps you can pick it up on the tram home and spread it to the news vendor in the shop on the corner but, ... ???
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Old 03.07.2021, 17:01
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Re: Coronavirus

I'm out of Switzerland next Tuesday for the summer. If I read well we need an antigen tests for travel with 72 hours before boarding. So, that was today after lunch. We passed by our local pharmacy where you just show up, if you have no symptoms, and get the test and certificate. Surprise, no places left for the day and now there's an online system to book a test. Got back home, access the website and learned that the antigen tests for the local pharmacy are fully booked until July 18th. After that, there's 1 month of vacation meaning no tests.

I start to look for alternatives and see the kantonal spital has appointments for Monday, perfect. I get the booking for my wife, and proceed to book my test and.......no more appointments for Monday. I get in panic mode and spend half an hour looking for a pharmacy or clinic. I found it so it's a happy end story. Tests on Monday a we GTFO on Tuesday. But the lesson here is that but if you're traveling, book your covid test well in advance There's high demand for them.
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Old 03.07.2021, 17:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm out of Switzerland next Tuesday for the summer. If I read well we need an antigen tests for travel with 72 hours before boarding. So, that was today after lunch. We passed by our local pharmacy where you just show up, if you have no symptoms, and get the test and certificate. Surprise, no places left for the day and now there's an online system to book a test. Got back home, access the website and learned that the antigen tests for the local pharmacy are fully booked until July 18th. After that, there's 1 month of vacation meaning no tests.

I start to look for alternatives and see the kantonal spital has appointments for Monday, perfect. I get the booking for my wife, and proceed to book my test and.......no more appointments for Monday. I get in panic mode and spend half an hour looking for a pharmacy or clinic. I found it so it's a happy end story. Tests on Monday a we GTFO on Tuesday. But the lesson here is that but if you're traveling, book your covid test well in advance There's high demand for them.

That’s useful advice, good if you to post this...
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Old 03.07.2021, 17:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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...But the lesson here is that but if you're traveling, book your covid test well in advance There's high demand for them.
Aww, if only you'd seen my post from June on the other thread. Could have saved yourself some hassle. I'm glad you got it sorted though.

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FYI - If you think you (general you, not anyone specific) will need or want a test soon, be sure to schedule an appointment as soon as you know.

I called yesterday for an appointment today thinking it would be no big deal. It's never been an issue before. The pharmacy where I usually go was fully booked. Another only had 3 time slots. When I got my test, the technician said they are crazy busy right now with testing for travelers.
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Old 03.07.2021, 18:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Interesting questions, I think this brings up lots of gray areas where we simply do not know…..maybe no context to help, but anyway.

For 1 and 1b, yes, it would seem so, but…nothing conclusive…
2, yes….but again, there isn’t enough info about spread.
This is interesting because messages seem to be quite mixed on this matter.

It might be interesting to know how many vaccination shots are not actually working. For example Pfizer delivered a dud shot, or the syringe jammed, or it got injected into the wrong tissue, or this person's immune system didn't react. So the person thinks they are vaccinated but they are not. How often does that type of thing occur and could there be some correlation with people who die despite being vaccinated?

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3 this is interesting….anecdotal info suggests that people who’ve had covid react more strongly on average to the vax. how does that apply to active covid? Don’t know. But then, there was more anecdotal reporting that the vax helped with long covid to some degree.

4. The expiration date is more political administrative than scientifically based. I’ve read reports where immunity ranges from 6 months to 2 years and I’ve not seen any breakdowns by demographic groups.
Obviously we don't have long term experience yet.

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I had my second vax mid April and early this week, had a horrible cold/virus, whatever. So I had a covid test….negative, luckily. The doctor told me that my vax was 90% effective, so I had a 10% chance of having covid, 20% if it was the delta variant. This is the back of the envelope thinking people are using.
When I had COVID I didn't have most of the symptoms but had some others so maybe I had some other virus together with COVID.
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