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  #27021  
Old 03.07.2021, 18:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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It might be interesting to know how many vaccination shots are not actually working. For example Pfizer delivered a dud shot, or the syringe jammed, or it got injected into the wrong tissue, or this person's immune system didn't react. So the person thinks they are vaccinated but they are not. How often does that type of thing occur and could there be some correlation with people who die despite being vaccinated?
Isn't that what efficacy parameter tells you? Human and technical errors tends to happen in the studies as well, and the rest is missing immune system response. To be 100% sure, one should get extra antibodies test I guess (or similar test has to be developed, now I'm not sure if AB are raised after vaccination).

But that is the case also for measles etc. - that's why certain level of collective immunity is necessary - you have people who didn't react on the vaccination, you have people who can't be vaccinated for health reasons, etc. And it is the collective responsibility to protect them as well.
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Old 03.07.2021, 20:23
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Re: Coronavirus

We flew into Italy on Thursday - not once were we checked for proof of vaccine, etc - I assumed Swiss would ask to see it as we boarded our flight, but nope no checks at all.
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  #27023  
Old 03.07.2021, 21:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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We flew into Italy on Thursday - not once were we checked for proof of vaccine, etc - I assumed Swiss would ask to see it as we boarded our flight, but nope no checks at all.
If you fly to Germany, they do. Expect delays as they tend to check that 5 minutes before boarding…….
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  #27024  
Old 04.07.2021, 09:51
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Re: Coronavirus

Arrived at Geneva airport last night no checks, I even avoided doing a contact trace form as it's not requirement for vaccinated. Drove to France again nothing,
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  #27025  
Old 04.07.2021, 10:02
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Re: Coronavirus

Has anyone traveled to Europe with their Swiss Covid certificate in lieu of a EU one? The Swiss say it's compatible but I'm not sure if it's accepted practically at border points...
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  #27026  
Old 04.07.2021, 10:22
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Re: Coronavirus

The EU says their certificate is valid in all EU member states plus Switzerland, Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein. That would suggest that the Swiss/LI one is valid in those countries as well.
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  #27027  
Old 04.07.2021, 12:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Aww, if only you'd seen my post from June on the other thread. Could have saved yourself some hassle. I'm glad you got it sorted though.
Missed that one :/ Hope people act smarter and plan 1 week in advance
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Old 04.07.2021, 13:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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The EU says their certificate is valid in all EU member states plus Switzerland, Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein. That would suggest that the Swiss/LI one is valid in those countries as well.
From the Bag site
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As long as it is not officially recognised by the EU, the certificate remains invalid.
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  #27029  
Old 04.07.2021, 13:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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Isn't that what efficacy parameter tells you? Human and technical errors tends to happen in the studies as well, and the rest is missing immune system response. To be 100% sure, one should get extra antibodies test I guess (or similar test has to be developed, now I'm not sure if AB are raised after vaccination).
I guess.

Only if I was a researcher I think this would be one of the first things I would be looking into. If the immune system doesn't work as expected that's not something you can fix on the cheap, but bad logistics and delivery you almost always can. Maybe that's where engineer-think and medical-think go their separate ways. Or maybe they are looking into this but just keeping quiet about it.

As an engineer and in an engineering system, it would be considered extreme sloppiness to install say an addition with a method that is known not to be 100% effective, and then sign it off without testing. As in, welcome aboard this brand new plane. It's never been flown before and there are lots of things that might be wrong with the wiring, but have no fear, similar planes have been known to fly.

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But that is the case also for measles etc. - that's why certain level of collective immunity is necessary - you have people who didn't react on the vaccination, you have people who can't be vaccinated for health reasons, etc. And it is the collective responsibility to protect them as well.
The thing wit measles is that, apparently, the system works quite well even with all the potential ineffeciency and even with people refusing to be vaccinated. So it looks as if herd immunity threshold levels are a pretty low target that you can reach even with inefficiency, and there is no point trying to optimize beyond that.

In the case of COVID this would appear to be different.
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  #27030  
Old 04.07.2021, 13:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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The thing with measles is that, apparently, the system works quite well even with all the potential ineffeciency and even with people refusing to be vaccinated. So it looks as if herd immunity threshold levels are a pretty low target that you can reach even with inefficiency, and there is no point trying to optimize beyond that.

In the case of COVID this would appear to be different.
Sorry to interrupt your musing with facts.
Herd immunity against measles requires about 95% of the population to be vaccinated.
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  #27031  
Old 04.07.2021, 14:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sorry to interrupt your musing with facts.
Herd immunity against measles requires about 95% of the population to be vaccinated.
My point exactly.

The clue is in the units.

This percentage needs to be vaccinated.

It's probably much more difficult to find out how many need to be effectively vaccinated.

When did you last hear of anybody being checked for measles antibodies?

Why do you think why not? Because doctors are so confident that nothing ever goes wrong? Or maybe because they know they can lay back because they are easily within the target no matter what?

So sorry to pop your little rose tinted bubble with unpleasant and critical thoughts.

But I hope you enjoyed countering my honest questions with your cynical posturing.
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Old 04.07.2021, 14:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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My point exactly.

The clue is in the units.

This percentage needs to be vaccinated.

It's probably much more difficult to find out how many need to be effectively vaccinated.

When did you last hear of anybody being checked for measles antibodies?

Why do you think why not? Because doctors are so confident that nothing ever goes wrong? Or maybe because they know they can lay back because they are easily within the target no matter what?

So sorry to pop your little rose tinted bubble with unpleasant and critical thoughts.

But I hope you enjoyed countering my honest questions with your cynical posturing.
Glad you agree herd immunity threshold levels are not a pretty low target.

Anyway, measles is a poor comparison to use versus coronavirus, measles virus does not mutate in a comparable way so one vaccination usually gives lifelong protection.
Herd immunity has not been achieved for measles, measles is still a common and often fatal disease in developing countries with deaths of ca. 100,000 annually.
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  #27033  
Old 04.07.2021, 16:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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If you fly to Germany, they do. Expect delays as they tend to check that 5 minutes before boarding…….
And if crossing a land border they send you an sms with a link asking you to check your quarantine requirements. We'll that happened today when drove through a German peninsula, departure and destination were in CH.
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  #27034  
Old 04.07.2021, 16:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Arrived at Geneva airport last night no checks, I even avoided doing a contact trace form as it's not requirement for vaccinated. Drove to France again nothing,
This has changed again. Everyone (vaccinated or not) arriving by plane has to do the contact form!
https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...nreisende.html

I do like the new travel checker tool
https://travelcheck.admin.ch/home
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  #27035  
Old 04.07.2021, 16:47
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Re: Coronavirus

Good article in The Economist on variants. The Delta graph is quite impressive (modelled of course, and unmitigated spread).



Paywall, and text too long to post.

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2...e-unvaccinated
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  #27036  
Old 04.07.2021, 17:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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My point exactly.

The clue is in the units.

This percentage needs to be vaccinated.

It's probably much more difficult to find out how many need to be effectively vaccinated.

When did you last hear of anybody being checked for measles antibodies?

Why do you think why not? Because doctors are so confident that nothing ever goes wrong? Or maybe because they know they can lay back because they are easily within the target no matter what?

So sorry to pop your little rose tinted bubble with unpleasant and critical thoughts.

But I hope you enjoyed countering my honest questions with your cynical posturing.
It was a while ago, but I’ve had my measles antibodies checked, e.g., as in a titer. No, it’s not common, but in people who need to demonstrate immunity from certain infectious disease, it might be useful to measure a titer, especially if, for example you had the disease rather than the vax.

I went back to school about 20 years ago and had to either have an MMR vax or demonstrate immunity. So I had a titer done ….it was easier at that point.
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  #27037  
Old 04.07.2021, 17:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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When did you last hear of anybody being checked for measles antibodies?

Why do you think why not? Because doctors are so confident that nothing ever goes wrong? Or maybe because they know they can lay back because they are easily within the target no matter what?
We had them checked not so long ago. My husband and I didn't have vaccination passports and didn't do any vaccinations in the adult age (except of occasional influenza jabs once in a while), so when we chose our family doctor in Switzerland she checked our antibodies to all common infections and then appointed the vaccinations we needed.
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  #27038  
Old 04.07.2021, 20:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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This has changed again. Everyone (vaccinated or not) arriving by plane has to do the contact form!
https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...nreisende.html

I do like the new travel checker tool
https://travelcheck.admin.ch/home
Not from Italy. Malta, San Marino or Vatican if vaccinated, non vaccinated need a PCR & Entry from
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coronavirus-screenshot-2021-07-04-20.37.16.png  
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  #27039  
Old 05.07.2021, 12:24
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Re: Coronavirus

Nothing fundamentally new, but an interesting and well written summary from NZZ about why people who have been fully vaccinacted ae still at danger of being killed by Covid. Both the alpha and delta variants.

The article talks about Israel and to a lesser extent the UK.

https://www.msn.com/de-ch/nachrichte...ken/ar-AALM1zU
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  #27040  
Old 05.07.2021, 12:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Nothing fundamentally new, but an interesting and well written summary from NZZ about why people who have been fully vaccinacted ae still at danger of being killed by Covid. Both the alpha and delta variants.

The article talks about Israel and to a lesser extent the UK.

https://www.msn.com/de-ch/nachrichte...ken/ar-AALM1zU
Key bullet point being “ According to Public Health England, they (vaccines) reduce the mortality risk for over 65s by 98 percent after two doses (for all variants together) .”
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