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Old 15.07.2021, 11:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Susie , this is wrong assumption. (to a degree we can believe it did eradicate smallpox)

Vaccination has not eradicated viruses. As a mattter of fact we have flu viruses RNA and DNA every year and a vaccine and still we have the virus over and over. the SARS cov1 SARS cov2 arent any different or an exception.
I think there was a word in that post that you missed.

Almost is a very important word.
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  #27342  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tony, the vaccine is very effective at stopping serious cases and deaths.

Herd immunity is a pipe dream if we don't get enough people vaccinated.
Berset said that the virus will in the end get everybody who won't vaccinate.

Therefore Berset is denying that there can be herd immunity.

So then why should anybody vaccinate at all, outside of the risk groups.
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  #27343  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Even if it was - which I disagree with, it barely matters given the hospitalisation and death rates with vaccinated people. Not vaccinating everyone is madness.
Children and young people should not be forced to take a vaccine for a virus that poses almost no threat to them. Especially if the vaccine poses more of a threat than the virus. If herd immunity does turn out to be a pipe dream then the push to vaccinate children and the young is simply unforgivable.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...-risk-12351975
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  #27344  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Berset said that the virus will in the end get everybody who won't vaccinate.

Therefore Berset is denying that there can be herd immunity.

So then why should anybody vaccinate at all, outside of the risk groups.
You never know what consequences will you have if you catch covid. Also, if you catch it naturally you can pass it to other people not knowing that you are infected.
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  #27345  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Children and young people should not be forced to take a vaccine for a virus that poses almost no threat to them. Especially if the vaccine poses more of a threat than the virus. If herd immunity does turn out to be a pipe dream then the push to vaccinate children and the young is simply unforgivable.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...-risk-12351975
I fail to understand why herd immunity would be a pipe dream. Infection rates for the fully vaccinated remain rare (and those unlucky people who do get infected will probably be protected for years).

Incidentally - aren't you fairly young, but chose to get it?
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  #27346  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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Laws are typically based on the underlying concept of equality.

A law that intentionally creates a two tier society is the sort of thing you might expect to find in a dictatorship.
Every law creates a two-tier society, there are the law abiding and then there are the criminals.
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  #27347  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:32
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Re: Coronavirus

the delta variant ptobably arose in India in 2020 - very low immunisation rate, social distancing impossible under Indian conditions.
I know of no dangerous variant that has arisen in a country with a high immunisation rate (ie Israel).
The maths says that more contagious/lethal/"bad" variants are much more likely to arise where immunisation rates are low, "our" problem is then what happens when these variants are imported.
There is no scientific argument against immunisation, with the exclusion of very young chidren who do not seem to be carriers.
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  #27348  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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No actually.

If the virus rips wild then there will be different variants and people will have different levels of immunity depending on the variant they had. You thus have a heterogenic and diverse immunity which means any iterative new variant can at best affect only pockets of the population.

For example there are people who have immunity without having been vaccinated or exposed to the virus but who picked it up off some other member of the coronavirus family.

Vaccination creates a homogenic immunity which means that any new variant that works out how to overcome that can run completely wild.

They should have vaccinated the old and vulnerable and stopped there.
You posted
"any iterative new variant can at best affect only pockets of the population."

Then you posted
"Vaccination creates a homogenic immunity which means that any new variant that works out how to overcome that can run completely wild."

You do know those two posts are contradictory?

BTW, what is "homogenic immunity"? Google does not recognise that phrase.
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  #27349  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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Children and young people should not be forced to take a vaccine for a virus that poses almost no threat to them.
Can you please provide a link to any governmental documentation that clearly shows there is a plan to force children to have a COVID vaccine?

As for children having a vaccine for a virus that poses almost no threat to them, this already happens:

I mentioned this before but the rubella part of the MMR vaccine given to young children is there to protect pregnant womens' unborn children and not for the protection of the children.

The HPV vaccine is offered to young men but is given to protect women from catching it and thus having a greater risk of cervical cancer.

It's this thing about doing something for the good of society rather than just for oneself....
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  #27350  
Old 15.07.2021, 13:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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No actually.

If the virus rips wild then there will be different variants and people will have different levels of immunity depending on the variant they had. You thus have a heterogenic and diverse immunity which means any iterative new variant can at best affect only pockets of the population.

For example there are people who have immunity without having been vaccinated or exposed to the virus but who picked it up off some other member of the coronavirus family.

Vaccination creates a homogenic immunity which means that any new variant that works out how to overcome that can run completely wild.

They should have vaccinated the old and vulnerable and stopped there.
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Can you please provide a link to any governmental documentation that clearly shows there is a plan to force children to have a COVID vaccine?

As for children having a vaccine for a virus that poses almost no threat to them, this already happens:

I mentioned this before but the rubella part of the MMR vaccine given to young children is there to protect pregnant womens' unborn children and not for the protection of the children.

The HPV vaccine is offered to young men but is given to protect women from catching it and thus having a greater risk of cervical cancer.

It's this thing about doing something for the good of society rather than just for oneself....
This is only because these vaccines are very safe (as is the Covid vaccine Tbf). It is against basic medical ethics to vaccinate somebody where harm outweighs risks to the individual.
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Old 15.07.2021, 13:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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I fail to understand why herd immunity would be a pipe dream. Infection rates for the fully vaccinated remain rare (and those unlucky people who do get infected will probably be protected for years).

Incidentally - aren't you fairly young, but chose to get it?
Herd immunity happens when a virus can’t spread because it keeps encountering people who are protected against infection. Once a sufficient proportion of the population is no longer susceptible, any new outbreak peters out. That would only be achievable minus vaccination if the majority of the population got the virus, which is not as harmless as you propose it to be... the health system would collapse. For goodness sakes, vaccinations have been saving us from these kind of diseases and viruses for decades now.

I have asthma and was able to get the vaccination quite early due to my risk category.
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  #27352  
Old 15.07.2021, 13:32
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Re: Coronavirus

Todays published numbers 582 out of 27 k tests

7 hospitalisations*
2 death *

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview

* Today’s “Difference to previous day” may include additional hospitalisations – because of the subsequent reception of reports going back more than two weeks.


Compared to last week thursday 268 out of 23 k tests

0 (33*) hospitalisations
0 (3*) death

*Adjusted numbers from previous days
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  #27353  
Old 15.07.2021, 13:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is only because these vaccines are very safe (as is the Covid vaccine Tbf). It is against basic medical ethics to vaccinate somebody where harm outweighs risks to the individual.
Which vaccines are unsafe?
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  #27354  
Old 15.07.2021, 14:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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Most naturally evolving viruses become less deadly over time.

Darwin says if you don't kill you host you have more chances of infecting other people.
Only in an unvaccinated population, and only if you let it rip.

Separating the ill changes the entire situation. Vaccines as we have them remove the deadliness and thereby this selection mechanism without affecting the virus.
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  #27355  
Old 15.07.2021, 14:48
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Re: Coronavirus

Viruses that that have along time period between infection and being infectious (to others), and killing off the host do not necessarily become less virulent over time. They don't need to as there is ample time to pass on the disease (and mutate) before the host dies.
The more people who have it, the more chance there is of a mutation.
The more different mutations there are, the greater chance of one becoming more virulent.

The Spanish flu of 1918 wiped out people so quickly that there wasn't a chance of mutation. COVID isn't, obviously, so deadly.

Viruses passed from animal host to human rarely become less virulent:

Dengue fever
Malaria
Rabies
Tick-borne encephalitis
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  #27356  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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Everyone over 18 has had the chance to be double vaccinated within a couple of weeks now.
Yes and no. In the rich countries perhaps but elsewhere in the world not even close. Even in CH, I'm only getting my second jab tomorrow due to life circumstances and lack of appointments. That means I won't be considered "fully protected" for another 2 weeks.

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Berset said that the virus will in the end get everybody who won't vaccinate.

Therefore Berset is denying that there can be herd immunity.

So then why should anybody vaccinate at all, outside of the risk groups.
Don't we (theoretically) reach herd immunity eventually via some combination of vaxxed and people who've had the virus and survived?

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... It is against basic medical ethics to vaccinate somebody where harm outweighs risks to the individual.
While I agree on the surface, the vast majority of vaccines are not "harmful" to the individual. There are some people who are allergic to vaccine components, there are some people with underlying immune conditions, etc. But overall a vaccine is a way the healthy population can protect each other as well as more vulnerable.

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...The Spanish flu of 1918 wiped out people so quickly that there wasn't a chance of mutation. COVID isn't, obviously, so deadly...
I think the comparisons between 1918 and today aren't realistic though. Medical care was not nearly as advanced then as it is today. If we took Covid and let it run through the world with 1918-style medical care then I think the numbers would be different. From what I understand, some variant of the 1918 flu is still lurking with us more than a century later.
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  #27357  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Komsomolez wasn't talking to you - he or she was speaking to someone else who thinks they are a subject matter expert in anything & everything in accordance to their political biases.



We are talking about Covid and we are talking about lessons we should have learned from past viruses - but you want to make it political and turn a civic responsibility into Orwell's 1984.
Well, to be fair, I don't agree with govs making these anti-covid vaccines mandatory. (not that this is the case, just from a purely theoretical point of view)

I still believe folks should be informed/educated/convinced/stimulated and not forced. I don't entertain orwellian scenarios, mind, I just don't like the idea of giving govs more power than they already have. Some (medical) decisions should be personal.
I'm vaccinated and almost everyone else I know too (minus kids) so it's not like I'm an anti-vaccines or anything, in case someone who doesn't know my point of view on anti-corona vaccines wonders. I advocate vaccination, but refrain from judging too harsh.
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  #27358  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:37
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Re: Coronavirus

I’m not seeing any suggestions that vaccinations are becoming mandatory. And I wouldn’t support that if it did.

What I am seing, in France for example, is that participating in certain public activities may require a Covid certificate.

AFAIK there are three ways to get a certificate;

Have the two vaccines and wait two weeks,
Have recovered from the disease,
Have had a recent negative test.

So no one will be discriminated against as two of the three ways are reasonably easy for anyone to accomplish.

I also think that certificates should be available for those that are unable, for medical reasons, to be vaccinated.
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  #27359  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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I’m not seeing any suggestions that vaccinations are becoming mandatory. And I wouldn’t support that if it did.

What I am seing, in France for example, is that participating in certain public activities may require a Covid certificate.

AFAIK there are three ways to get a certificate;

Have the two vaccines and wait two weeks,
Have recovered from the disease,
Have had a recent negative test.

So no one will be discriminated against as two of the three ways are reasonably easy for anyone to accomplish.

I also think that certificates should be available for those that are unable, for medical reasons, to be vaccinated.
Didn't they remove free tests? I thought this was part of the "mandatory" nature of it with it being prohibitively expensive to not be vaccinated.
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  #27360  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well, to be fair, I don't agree with govs making these anti-covid vaccines mandatory. (not that this is the case, just from a purely theoretical point of view)
Me too, but I'm not sure about the personnel of the old people homes. I think those poor old people deserve to be taken care of by the vaccinated caregivers.
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