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  #27701  
Old 25.07.2021, 16:23
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Re: Coronavirus

And now that some people have seen the youtube video with the MP talking ?

what should we think about this ?
  #27702  
Old 25.07.2021, 16:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why couldn't you post the original information first rather than a woman who has a history of being discredited and talking nonsense?
I'm all for differing points of view, but I'm not going to waste my time listening to a proven liar just in case they are right, the boy that cried wolf comes to mind.
Who the fu** is Gillian McKeith?
Never mind, probably part of the reason I'm not on FB.

As to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmhvA-DmXYg why does this not surprise me? I can't help laughing about it actually, GB has proven to be a laughing stock years ago.

Does the placebo have to be given to me by a third party or can I do it by autosuggestion and get the paper for it?

Unfortunately for anyone vaccinated in GB this could be: Cancel the holiday flights. Guilt by association.

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.... what should we think about this ?
Is that a serious question? LOL
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  #27703  
Old 25.07.2021, 16:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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When I saw that tweet , the headline of the text had a link below and it was one of the uk newspapers. From the time I saw it and came back to screenshot it the link is missing.

I totally forgot about Gillian and I cant see how she's such a big liar (they made a huge thing because she used the Dr. which is not used used in Europe unless you are a med.doctor) whereas in the US you can be a Dr. if you went to some osteopathy,physio,nutritional school..

If you apply that same logic than definitely you shouldnt listen to pharma companies.. like pfizer , who for years have lied, cheated, forged documents(which involves altering, changing and modifying a document for the purpose of deceiving another person or an authority , like fda etc.) yet they did it .

Sandra Jordan, a former federal prosecutor and professor at the Charlotte School of Law in North Carolina, said: “Pfizer can survive this and pay the money. If it had fought the government at trial and lost, and a judge imposed a criminal sentence, that could have resulted in a corporate death penalty. That would have put Pfizer out of business.


Pfizer to pay $2.3 billion, agrees to criminal plea


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Pfizer Inc agreed on Wednesday to plead guilty to a U.S. criminal charge relating to promotion of its now-withdrawn Bextra pain medicine and will pay a record $2.3 billion to settle allegations it improperly marketed 13 medicines.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-p...5813XB20090902

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justi...nt-its-history
I don't care about your relativism here, but I won't take anything for serious from a person who describes herself as The Poo Lady in her Twitter account.
  #27704  
Old 25.07.2021, 17:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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And now that some people have seen the youtube video with the MP talking ?

what should we think about this ?
IME it helps to be extremely critical of short clips by essentially anonymous posters, to the extent to assume that they misrepresent the facts. Simply because it's far too easy to misrepresent what's actually said with them by removing the context. In this case you'd want at least the question plus the full answer, though the transcript reveals that this wouldn't be enough.

See the transcript.

Rupa Huq's question is the frame for the subsequent question by Barbara Keeley. A part of the answer to the latter is shown in the clip. However, in his answer to Huq's question, Zahawi talks about people who are in a medical trial. In order to keep the trial blind, every participant must be treated the same. You'll want to reward for participation, rather than punish, so it makes sense to give all participants a "vaccinated" pass (validity thereof pending outside of the UK).

The problem arrives after the trial, because you'll want to vaccinate all participants, so you need a solution for the recipients of the placebo. Novavax has solved this conundrum by offering a sencond set of shots to all participants, where they receive what they don't have yet (vaccine or placebo) so that each participant will have received four shots at the end, two placebos and two vaccine jabs or vice versa. Since all participants are willing to get vaxxed, the number of those who will get only two jabs, i.e. possibly placebos only, is probably close to zero.

So overall this looks very much like a nonevent that's blown way out of proportion.
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  #27705  
Old 25.07.2021, 17:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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The problem arrives after the trial, because you'll want to vaccinate everybody. Novavax has solved this conundrum by offering a sencond set of shots for all participants, where they receive what they don't have yet (vaccine or placebo) so that each participant will have received four shots at the end, two placebos and two vaccine jabs or vice versa. Since participants are willing to get vaxxed, the number of those who will get only two jabs, i.e. possibly placebos only, is probably close to zero.
Thanks for sharing, I'd not heard that. I think it's a very reasonable solution.
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  #27706  
Old 25.07.2021, 18:10
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Re: Coronavirus

UrsMax I tried to find the other video that lasts 2-3min where he says how they're negotiating with other european countries to approve of that "pass".

The issue for me here it is not whether these people will be vaccinated in future and what will happen and what Novavax or the other companies are saying.

What is shocking (or maybe not) is that moment when we say "virus, huge threat, the unvaccinated are a danger, they spread the virus, they cant go around (danger,danger) including children... but, we will be issuing legal documents, a sanitary passport (certificate) of how they're vaccinated but ..they're not. ? I dont understand how it can even be juridically possible.

This is in the same league as what France has announced week ago...How, people will have to be all vaccinated by september, if they dont do it they will be fired. But, the police is exempt from this rule. They dont have to obey this new "law".

So, technically, they can be called to arrest you, them being unvaccinated because you as unvaccinated are trying to get into a shop/restaurant but you're not allowed to do so.
Also, they (the police) will be issued papers stating how they have the certificate that says -vaccinated- but they are not and they dont have to .

To me this is shocking because we're just witnessing a society creating something never seen before. Also something that does not make sense. But each of us right now is thinking "nah it'll be ok, they'll fix it" . And just like that , the virus has mutated into a china-like totalitarism and we're all "nah, we've got laws man, things are double-triple checked"
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  #27707  
Old 25.07.2021, 18:41
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Re: Coronavirus

Here , from the transcript:

I am really grateful to the hon. Member for that excellent question, and I am grateful for her comments about our Friday morning meetings. Her constituents can rest assured that those who are in clinical trials, including the Novavax trial, will have their data on the NHS covid app as being fully vaccinated, whether they are receiving the placebo or the vaccine, across all trials. That is happening. I will take it offline to look at her constituents’ case to make sure that that happens for them, because I am assured that the system already recognises that.
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  #27708  
Old 25.07.2021, 18:50
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Re: Coronavirus

Interestingly AZ is accepted by more countries than any other vaccine
https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...WOueVUJ5EJdOk0
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  #27709  
Old 25.07.2021, 19:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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Interestingly AZ is accepted by more countries than any other vaccine
https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...WOueVUJ5EJdOk0
I’m not sure that is relevant. A few Andorras, Monacos and Liechtensteins don’t actually add up to much.
  #27710  
Old 25.07.2021, 19:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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Here , from the transcript:

I am really grateful to the hon. Member for that excellent question, and I am grateful for her comments about our Friday morning meetings. Her constituents can rest assured that those who are in clinical trials, including the Novavax trial, will have their data on the NHS covid app as being fully vaccinated, whether they are receiving the placebo or the vaccine, across all trials. That is happening. I will take it offline to look at her constituents’ case to make sure that that happens for them, because I am assured that the system already recognises that.
That refers to incentivising trial participants. If partipation comes with significant disadvantages you're much less likely to find enough participants. Further, Novavax has opened that option 2-3 months ago, so, again, the number this may still apply to should be small. Keep in mind that you need to be willing to be vaccinated to participate in the trial, it's an unconditional prerequisite.

So, how many people do or did get a pass without actual vaccination? And how many of those got a vaccination later on, basically once it was available to them?

ETA:
How is this pass anything fundamentally new? You need a passport or ID to enter a foreign country. Now there may be an additional requirement, however that isn't new either, many countries have been requiring some vaccination or other for ages. I think you should be much more concerned about Migros using cctv and facial recognition software in their shops, and of Pegasus.
  #27711  
Old 25.07.2021, 19:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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Interestingly AZ is accepted by more countries than any other vaccine
https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...WOueVUJ5EJdOk0
Can't see the placebo on your list.
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  #27712  
Old 25.07.2021, 20:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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I’m not sure that is relevant. A few Andorras, Monacos and Liechtensteins don’t actually add up to much.
And Malta! How could you have forgotten Malta?
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  #27713  
Old 26.07.2021, 00:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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The only thing your example demonstrates is why it’s wrong to put so much faith in scientists to take decisions. The most frustrating part of working with scientists, technicians and engineers is their ability to get bogged down in minor details whilst completely missing the bigger picture.

Real world data is showing the efficacy (or effectiveness if you prefer, ultimately for the sake of this argument they may as well be the same thing!) of these vaccines against transmission to be significantly less than measured in trials. The headline should be “argument for vaccine passports and enforced vaccination collapses as evidence mounts”. Yet there’s people like you focussing a description deliberately made for the layman ��
I didn’t quote any figures and “people like me” ?
I simply posted the definition of efficacy and how it is derived.
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  #27714  
Old 26.07.2021, 08:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tony there is ample positivity data showing vaccinated people are infected at 1/5 the numbers of unvaccinated. That's with mainly AZ. Protection would be closer to 90% if you were comparing to immunologically naive population.

THEN even if you are unlucky enough to get infected it's more often mild disease.
Where? Whilst I would expect the vaccine to provide better protection from developing symptomatic Covid, from the data, I'm not so sure if it's 5 times as for those which are unvaccinated.

Let's start with the anecdotal evidence, Piers Morgan announced at the weekend that he had contracted Covid despite being double jabbed. Owen Jones and Andrew Marr have also have also become infected after being double jabbed. This was the Tweet that Piers Morgan put out, "many similar responses...from people who’ve been vaxxed but then had rough time after catching Delta variant"

https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/stat...91424558501888

Now let's look at the actual data, look at the last two technical briefings from PHE. Looking at the raw data in Table 5 for unvaccinated cases verses double vaccinated then one could be forgiven for thinking it shows the vaccine to be five times more effective at preventing infection, however this doesn't show the true picture.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ncern-20201201

Firstly, all those which have only received a single jab are neglected. More importantly though is to look at the figures for over-50s and compare the data between the last two reports. Back of a fag packet calculation between report 18 and 19 shows that there's been 8988 new cases in the last month for vaccinated (including those with one jab) and 1070 unvaccinated new cases for over 50s.

We know about 21 million over 50s have been vaccinated, and about 2 million over 50s are unvaccinated in England. So there's an approximate infection rate in the over 50s this past month for vaccinated is 0.043% verses 0.054% for unvaccinated. One divide the other gives about a 20% effectiveness at preventing infection.

Finally, UCL who are also tracking and modelling the data have also come up with a similar figure for how effective the vaccines are at preventing infection (19.2%) though they then state that it's 84.7% effective at preventing transmission, which I struggle to understand - if one is infected and symptomatic no matter how minor, then one can spread the virus . They also estimate the vaccines to be only 49.3% effective at preventing serious illness when infected for those 35-70. There is a disclaimer on the website so I'm not sure how accurate these estimates are.

https://www.fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk/spm/covid-19/forecasting/
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Old 26.07.2021, 09:16
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Re: Coronavirus

Also interesting is that cases in the UK are dropping like a stone, AFTER they removed virtually all lockdown restrictions (including masks). Some models predicted they'd hit 100,000 cases a day following so called "Freedom Day". Shouldn't be surprising really, we've seen the same story in Sweden, Texas, Florida etc. Basically, the virus will do what viruses do. We can expect another wave of cases in autumn/winter despite vaccinations. This will be the new normal that we have to get used too. Lockdown restrictions and masks mandates have been for nothing.
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Old 26.07.2021, 09:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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Lockdown restrictions and masks mandates have been for nothing.
Utter drivel. My sister in law is being treated for cancer, is immunocompromised and lives under virtual house arrest so gammons can go to the pub. Meanwhile my brother has to live in a caravan in the garden as he has to work on a building site with covidiots who don’t want to wear a mask “cos it don’t affect me”.

But hey, don’t wear a mask if it adds minor inconvenience to your life.

I will probably get groaned at by FMF and his little team of enablers. It is almost a sport.
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Old 26.07.2021, 09:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Utter drivel. My sister in law is being treated for cancer, is immunocompromised and lives under virtual house arrest so gammons can go to the pub. Meanwhile my brother has to live in a caravan in the garden as he has to work on a building site with covidiots who don’t want to wear a mask “cos it don’t affect me”.

But hey, don’t wear a mask if it adds minor inconvenience to your life.

I will probably get groaned at by FMF and his little team of enablers. It is almost a sport.
Probably for the best, a mask worn by anyone wouldn't help at all in preventing your sister in law from contracting Covid. Thoughts and prayers.
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  #27718  
Old 26.07.2021, 09:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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Utter drivel. My sister in law is being treated for cancer, is immunocompromised and lives under virtual house arrest so gammons can go to the pub. Meanwhile my brother has to live in a caravan in the garden as he has to work on a building site with covidiots who don’t want to wear a mask “cos it don’t affect me”.

But hey, don’t wear a mask if it adds minor inconvenience to your life.

I will probably get groaned at by FMF and his little team of enablers. It is almost a sport.
She'd be in the same position if she lived anywhere in the EU or America. All bars and restaurants are open everywhere, and no-one doing manual labour on a building site wears a mask.
I don't see why you are blaming UK gammons for the plight of your poor SIL.
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Old 26.07.2021, 09:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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Utter drivel. My sister in law is being treated for cancer, is immunocompromised and lives under virtual house arrest so gammons can go to the pub. Meanwhile my brother has to live in a caravan in the garden as he has to work on a building site with covidiots who don’t want to wear a mask “cos it don’t affect me”.

But hey, don’t wear a mask if it adds minor inconvenience to your life.

I will probably get groaned at by FMF and his little team of enablers. It is almost a sport.
I am very sorry for your SIL, but since she is immunocompromised, she would have to be isolated anyway correct? Covid-19 isn't the only potentially deadly virus in the world right now for someone like her.

Hope she and your brother can stay safe & healthy! As much as I dislike them - wearing masks is the least we could do at this time, I do not see a problem with it out of respect...
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Old 26.07.2021, 10:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Probably for the best, a mask worn by anyone wouldn't help at all in preventing your sister in law from contracting Covid. Thoughts and prayers.
Here is perfect example of you showing a complete lack of empathy during your anti-Covid measures crusade. Please try harder!
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