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  #27941  
Old 28.07.2021, 23:32
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Re: Coronavirus

And why pointless? We are all in the same pot here...and we're looking at all aspects of the matter,that's why we're here?

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has been ordered to be said??? You're making bold assumptions to suit
Is this something new to you?? You are unaware of decrees? or how the Ministry of Health is issuing memorandums, Circulars /OM'S & ORDERS ?

The only problem is .. in this case, of the year 2020 this is done by "selected members of the committee" which is 10 people and this is why scientists ,doctors are stunned and dont know what to do anymore since things that have come out as orders (due to that committee decisions and president validating it) . So there's a lot to debate here . Like, what's happening with science, democracy (debating) , confronting each other and even voting (a tiny committee deciding , hmm really) ? (btw, not even voted by other scientists&med doctors, but a weird selection)
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  #27942  
Old 29.07.2021, 01:56
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Re: Coronavirus

Actually, what FairDinkum is saying is that after 2020, the narrative appeared to have changed.

You don't have to believe it, but have a look at information about masking that shows up before 2020. Would it be interesting (to you) if the older information contradicted the post you cited?

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Clearly, your instinct is to dismiss anything that contradicts your cognitive biases. I therefore think it's pointless for us to engage in this conversation any further.
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  #27943  
Old 29.07.2021, 08:02
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Re: Coronavirus

Israel approves vaccine for at risk 5-11 year olds
https://timesofmalta.com/articles/vi...ed-5-11.889819
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Old 29.07.2021, 08:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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KiwiSteve, I didnt mean it in absolute terms. It was an illustration .. Even the op.block(the air) is not sterile (I mean aseptic) But that's what the surgery theatre bloc is aiming for .. and even with great AC and other technology because of the lamps and bacteria .. the totally sterilised instruments once taken out of their film protection become "contaminated" .

This is why instrumetns are even kept on side and devices like the Ultra clean air flow need to be turned on in order to keep instruments sterile from airborne contamination.
It was quite well established pre-pandemic that surgical masks were worn in hospitals due convention rather than down to any tangible benefit which they bring:

Is Routine Use of a Face Mask Necessary in the Operating Room?

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WHEN introduced a century ago, the purpose of the surgical facemask was to provide protection for the patient from surgical wound infections. But is there evidence that face masks prevent wound infections? A recent review concluded that it is not clear whether face masks prevent surgical wound infections,1and the scientific evidence for this practice is weak and insufficient.1,2Questioning the efficacy of surgical face masks, an established routine in operating rooms worldwide, is clearly controversial given the tradition of the practice. Recognizing the lack of sound scientific evidence, we have changed facemask routines in several units at the Karolinska University Hospital (see image by Henrik Jörnvall, M.D., Ph.D., Department of Anesthesia, Surgical Sciences and Intensive Care, Karolinska University Hospital Solna, Stockholm, Sweden).

Anesthesia personnel are no longer required to wear disposable face masks in the operating room, a practice approved by our surgical colleagues. Surgeons, their assistants, and scrub nurses are still required to wear masks.

Face masks are worn by all operating room personnel when treating patients susceptible to infections as in neurosurgery, vascular, and orthopedic procedures involving implants and regional anesthesia procedures (e.g. , spinal or epidural). Face masks are also used to protect staff from contamination. All personnel wear face masks when taking care of trauma patients or patients with blood-borne infections.

Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist, and studies to establish differences in infection rates with or without face masks will likely be difficult to design and implement given the small potential effect.
Source:
https://pubs.asahq.org/anesthesiolog...cessary-in-the

See also:

Disposable surgical face masks for preventing surgical wound infection in clean surgery

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27115326/

Quote:
Main results
We included three trials, involving a total of 2106 participants. There was no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials. We identified no new trials for this latest update.

Authors' conclusions
From the limited results it is unclear whether the wearing of surgical face masks by members of the surgical team has any impact on surgical wound infection rates for patients undergoing clean surgery.
Unmasking the surgeons: the evidence base behind the use of facemasks in surgery

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...41076815583167

Quote:
What literature that is available on the subject tends to be dated with poorly explained methodology. There is also uncertainty over whether the results of such studies can be extrapolated to current surgical practice given the advent of new antiseptic techniques since they were completed. The evidence base investigating the effects of facemask usage on patient-based outcomes is, in general, more extensive than that of surgeon-centred outcomes. Facemasks do have a clear role in maintaining the social cleanliness of surgical staff, but evidence is lacking to suggest that they confer protection from infection either to patients or to the surgeons that wear them.

Another unavoidable aspect of this debate is that of public perception. In the public psyche, facemasks have become so strongly associated with safe and proper surgical practice that their disposal could cause unnecessary patient distress. Indeed, the response on various medical forums following Mr Ahmed’s decision not to wear a mask during his broadcasted surgeries would reflect the prevalence of such a belief among the public.
Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1853618/

Quote:
It has never been shown that wearing surgical face masks decreases postoperative wound infections. On the contrary, a 50% decrease has been reported after omitting face masks. The present study was designed to reveal any 30% or greater difference in general surgery wound infection rates by using face masks or not. During 115 weeks, a total of 3,088 patients were included in the study. Weeks were denoted as "masked" or "unmasked" according to a random list. After 1,537 operations performed with face masks, 73 (4.7%) wound infections were recorded and, after 1,551 operations performed without face masks, 55 (3.5%) infections occurred. This difference was not statistically significant (p greater than 0.05) and the bacterial species cultured from the wound infections did not differ in any way, which would have supported the fact tha the numerical difference was a statistically "missed" difference. These results indicated that the use of face masks might be reconsidered. Masks may be used to protect the operating team from drops of infected blood and from airborne infections, but have not been proven to protect the patient operated by a healthy operating team.
Use of surgical masks in the operating room: a review of the clinical effectiveness and guidelines

https://www.crd.york.ac.uk/crdweb/Sh...ID=32014000881

Quote:
Authors' conclusions
The use of surgical face masks by staff in the operating room is presumed to reduce the frequency of surgical site infections. The evidence identified and included in this report finds no evidence basis for this presumption. The consensus of the systematic reviews included in this report is that there is a paucity of data on this topic, and that current evidence is lacking for altering clinical practice. The included guidelines of this report are also in agreement that the long standing practice of wearing surgical face masks in the operating room should continue despite the lack of clinical efficacy evidence.

No evidence was identified that examined a potential role for surgical face masks in protecting staff from infectious material encountered in the operating room. In the absence of available clinical evidence the guidelines recommend wearing masks of a type suitable to the procedure being performed and in accordance with applicable health and safety regulations.
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  #27945  
Old 29.07.2021, 08:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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Israel approves vaccine for at risk 5-11 year olds
https://timesofmalta.com/articles/vi...ed-5-11.889819
More news from Israel, they're likely to start giving third doses of the Pfizer vaccine to the elderly and at risk people following a recommendation from the medical advisory panel to the government. Israeli PM is due to take a decision today. This comes after data indicating that the efficacy of the vaccine may already be waning.

Source:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-set...-expert-panel/

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Have they checked to see that the unvaccinated were not previously infected?
This study again shows the limitations of Science when trying to look backwards for "confirmed findings". Putting aside that this study was funded by Pfizer/Biontech themselves, look at the time frame for this study. It in no way matches to the real-time data coming out of countries that are advanced with their vaccination programs. It's like driving whilst looking in the rear view mirror.

It's why Israel are probably acting responsibly by being so pro-active. Far better to look for indicators and trends in the data rather than limiting actions on the basis of what's happened in the past.

Last edited by TonyClifton; 29.07.2021 at 08:52.
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  #27946  
Old 29.07.2021, 08:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Actually, what FairDinkum is saying is that after 2020, the narrative appeared to have changed.

You don't have to believe it, but have a look at information about masking that shows up before 2020. Would it be interesting (to you) if the older information contradicted the post you cited?
The narrative on why doctors wear masks in hospitals changed? That's what we were discussing -- why doctors wear masks in hospitals.
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Old 29.07.2021, 09:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's why Israel are probably acting responsibly by being so pro-active. Far better to look for indicators and trends in the data rather than limiting actions on the basis of what's happened in the past.
We won't know who had the best strategy until it's all over.

And even then it will be down to how you weight different aspects, which extend beyond immediate corona-related deaths to old people suffering and even dying of depressions and loneliness to economic damages caused by lockdowns etc.

There will always be different opinions on which of these should be prioritized or how they should be weighted, and so there will probably never be a concensus over the best strategy, not even in hindsight.

Yet there are plenty of people who claim to know exactly what is right and what isn't.
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Old 29.07.2021, 09:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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It was quite well established pre-pandemic that surgical masks were worn in hospitals due convention rather than down to any tangible benefit which they bring:
Okay. Well, all your links are in regard to face masks and wounds. We were discussing doctors wearing them to help prevent transmission of respiratory viruses -- from patient to doctor and/or doctor to patient.
  #27949  
Old 29.07.2021, 09:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Okay. Well, all your links are in regard to face masks and wounds. We were discussing doctors wearing them to help prevent transmission of respiratory viruses -- from patient to doctor and/or doctor to patient.
I understand their usage in hospitals, but that usage is significantly different to
using a single mask for the day that has been stuffed in a pocket or hung off an ear.

I still see them as a way to reduce the distance your breath goes forward, by diffusing it in multiple directions as close to you as possible. In this way I understand the benefit of them. Mind you I've not read extensive articles on the matter.
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  #27950  
Old 29.07.2021, 10:10
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Re: Coronavirus

Well, I don't think anyone here is really going to change their minds about masks. The debate about them here has become redundant. The way I see it, if someone next to me in the store or on the train had Covid and sneezed or coughed, I'd much rather they were wearing a mask than not.

It's a nice, sunny day here today (finally!). I'd prefer to not waste it arguing in circles about masks with strangers on the Internet. I think it's already been made clear that we have differing opinions and that debating in circles about it over and over isn't going to change that.
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  #27951  
Old 29.07.2021, 10:28
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Re: Coronavirus

Pancakes, the point in all this is something like a brainstorming session..

Your first reply to me was "well surgeons wear it for hours and they're fine therefore the mask is ok"

But this is simply not true nor you can compare the surgeon's activity in a operating block (as I tried to explain it) .. with us, or them, living which means, moving, breathing at a different pace, gasping for air, drinking water etc.

Then you showed an article where doctors say how they visit very ill patients in the hospital, with masks going from a room to a room. Even in that case I pointed out how it does not justify or explain the point of wearing a blue mask,ffp2, a cloth or a diaper because those same doctors from your article once they go outside of the hospital are going to a restaurant,cinema,shop , not wearing a cloth - ever- not even when there's a peak in flu infections or the common cold.

Then TC got motivated and took it even further and showed how even in surgery wearing a mask is more like some admin.protocol and they did tests over the years and there was no difference in contaminations whether they wore it or not.

Think also how when you went to the dentist they wear a mask while they're working on your teeth and this is because of projections and possibility of having some droplets that may infect you . Once the procedure is over,they're taking their mask off. The point is: the mask is there for a certain purpose and it's written clearly how it can not protect from a respiratory virus .
Again, I am not trying to convince you how you're wrong or to prove you how I'm right. It is to listen and exchange and talk about things that dont add up or lack coherence in what has been presented to us.

Outside it is sunny and I'm outside,cant even see the screan properly but nothing - NOTHING can stop me from partying on this magical lyrical rhapsodical EF
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  #27952  
Old 29.07.2021, 10:29
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Re: Coronavirus

I think both sides are right and wrong. Fact is that the surgical mask box itself clearly states that it won't protect against Corona

It is helpful from viral load point of view though, that is what research showed, apparently.

Wearing the mask on public transport definitely helped me with the common cold though, I haven't had it for more than a year. Normally I would get it 1 to 3 times a year, even if mild version

Last edited by Talk to you later; 29.07.2021 at 12:21.
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Old 29.07.2021, 11:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think both sides are right and wrong. Fact is that the surgical mask box itself clearly says that it won't protect against Corona

It is helpful from viral load point of view though, that is what research showed, apparently.

Wearing the mask on public transport definitely helped me with the common cold though, I haven't had it for more than a year. Normally I would get it 1 to 3 times a year, even if minor
wearing a mask saves time on shaving.
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Old 29.07.2021, 11:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think both sides are right and wrong. Fact is that the surgical mask box itself clearly says that it won't protect against Corona

It is helpful from viral load point of view though, that is what research showed, apparently.

Wearing the mask on public transport definitely helped me with the common cold though, I haven't had it for more than a year. Normally I would get it 1 to 3 times a year, even if minor
Exactly, masks reduce viral load in both directions - result less transmission of airborne infections whatever it says on the box.- the facts are clear. Hospitals are notorious as places to catch an infection. Problems occur when sick staff are under pressure to turn up for work. If there has been one benefit from this saga, it has been to highlight the importance of personal hygiene. What exactly are cost-effective procedures in hospitals is going to be an evolving science and will depend so much on the general hospital conditions.
  #27955  
Old 29.07.2021, 14:10
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Re: Coronavirus

Todays published numbers 827 out of 18 k tests

24 hospitalisations (75*)
2 death (20*)

* Adjusted numbers from previous days

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview

Compared to last week thursday 861 out of 21 k tests

14 hospitalisations*
7 death*

*Today’s “Difference to previous day” may include additional hospitalisations – because of the subsequent reception of reports going back more than two weeks.
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Old 29.07.2021, 14:49
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Re: Coronavirus

Citing the impetus of the delta variant being a 'Variant of Concern', the CDC have revised their mask recommendations: even vaccinated are being advised to mask - along with those in Kindergarten through 12th grade

No specificity on which masks to wear but FDA commissioner advises N95/KN95/FFPII
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Old 29.07.2021, 14:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Citing the impetus of the delta variant being a 'Variant of Concern',
Just wondering.

Are there any variants that are not of concern?

And if there are, surely exposing people to them intentionally might be a good alternative to vaxxing.
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Old 29.07.2021, 14:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just wondering.

Are there any variants that are not of concern?

And if there are, surely exposing people to them intentionally might be a good alternative to vaxxing.
It's not an official designation but rather a description of how this variant poses different risks to the population at large - hence the reversal of their position

CDC will be releasing data later today to reflect the logic behind the decision
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Old 29.07.2021, 15:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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Citing the impetus of the delta variant being a 'Variant of Concern', the CDC have revised their mask recommendations: even vaccinated are being advised to mask - along with those in Kindergarten through 12th grade

No specificity on which masks to wear but FDA commissioner advises N95/KN95/FFPII

Last edited by V__; 29.07.2021 at 15:40.
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  #27960  
Old 29.07.2021, 15:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just wondering.

Are there any variants that are not of concern?

And if there are, surely exposing people to them intentionally might be a good alternative to vaxxing.
Google is your friend

So far there are around a half-million published SARS-CoV-2 sequences.
Only four variants are defined as "of concern".

Then you have variants "of Interest" and variants of "high consequence".

Currently, there are no SARS-CoV-2 variants that rise to the level of high consequence.
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