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  #28081  
Old 03.08.2021, 08:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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Obvious positive data regarding the vaccine but still vague and/or incorrect figures.

Example. 0.004% vaccinated cases require hospitalization = 6520 as you say.
but then 95% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated people. So where is missing 4.006% - approx 6.5 million?

There are so many news reports like this that infer a trend or mis-inform.

Saying “ more than 98% of cases were among the unvaccinated” is in itself unscientific.

Example: qoute “ About half of states report data on Covid-19 breakthrough cases, and in each of those states, less than 1% of fully vaccinated people had a breakthrough infection”.
Words like “About” and “less than” are, for me, sand in the air.

They either have an absolute % or not.
Unlucky for Lindsey Graham to make it into that 1%

You're completely right though, this article sums up the general appalling nature of Covid reporting in the US throughout this pandemic. The Delta wave has barely gotten going and they're making such bold proclamations again looking backwards rather than forwards and ignoring what's been seen in the UK, Israel, Iceland and basically any country with a high vaccination rate.

Here's a good commentary on the latest developments which also touches on the irresponsible reporting in the US.

Lessons, cautionary tales from Israel on the pandemic’s next stage

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/lesson...t-stage-675465
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  #28082  
Old 03.08.2021, 08:12
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Re: Coronavirus

I agree that expressing breakthroughs as a percentage of all vaccinated is somewhat misleading unless comparing it to case numbers of unvaccinated.

It is less misleading though than your outlandish claim of yesterday that vaccines are not effective in preventing infection anf transmission.
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Old 03.08.2021, 08:29
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Re: Coronavirus

TC, that Jerusalem Post article was an interesting read. I wish I could time travel and see where all this will end.
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  #28084  
Old 03.08.2021, 08:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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I agree that expressing breakthroughs as a percentage of all vaccinated is somewhat misleading unless comparing it to case numbers of unvaccinated.

It is less misleading though than your outlandish claim of yesterday that vaccines are not effective in preventing infection anf transmission.
I didn't claim that, I said there was a report from the US that basically confirmed this.

I also would question some of that report's findings. Given that 85% of the positive cases were in men and that the data was gathered during July in Provincetown. Anyone that's been to Provincetown during the summer months may, ahem, understand the reason for this so whilst I don't think the report gives a fully accurate picture of vaccine effectiveness, it does add another piece to the jigsaw.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm
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  #28085  
Old 03.08.2021, 08:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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I didn't claim that, I said there was a report from the US that basically confirmed this.

I also would question some of that report's findings. Given that 85% of the positive cases were in men and that the data was gathered during July in Provincetown. Anyone that's been to Provincetown during the summer months may, ahem, understand the reason for this so whilst I don't think the report gives a fully accurate picture of vaccine effectiveness, it does add another piece to the jigsaw.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm

In fact it says itself (Discussion paragraphs) that it's not sufficient to make any conclusions:


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First, data from this report are insufficient to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant, during this outbreak. As population-level vaccination coverage increases, vaccinated persons are likely to represent a larger proportion of COVID-19 cases.
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  #28086  
Old 03.08.2021, 09:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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can you define an anti vaxxer please?
Google is your friend. But on the offchance this is a request in good faith:

Someone opposed to the idea of vaccination. Not someone who cannot have a vaccine due to medical reasons.
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  #28087  
Old 03.08.2021, 09:44
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Re: Coronavirus

A new report from the KFF "COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases Are Extremely Rare, According to KFF US States Data Analysis". CDC reports were national, this is by State.

The rate of breakthrough cases reported among those fully vaccinated is well below 1% in all reporting states, ranging from 0.01% in Connecticut to 0.29% in Alaska.

The rates of death among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 were even lower, effectively zero (0.00%) in all but two reporting states, Arkansas and Michigan where they were 0.01%. (Note: Deaths may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)

Edit: 66 year old Lindsey Graham is the first fully vaccinated US Senator to have a breakthrough infection, mild symptoms so far.
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  #28088  
Old 03.08.2021, 09:45
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Re: Coronavirus

I've noticed a trend where (some) people will instinctively negate the validity of an article or study when they don't want it to be true because it contradicts their cognitive biases. And yet they never question or negate the validity of articles or studies that do align with their cognitive biases.

But I guess that's the era we're living in. The Age of Opinion -- where facts do not shape our opinions, and instead, our opinions determine what our minds are willing to accept as fact.

I suppose some people don't want truth. They just want to feel confirmed.
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  #28089  
Old 03.08.2021, 09:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've noticed a trend where (some) people will instinctively negate the validity of an article or study when they don't want it to be true because it contradicts their cognitive biases. And yet they never question or negate the validity of articles or studies that do align with their cognitive biases.

But I guess that's the era we're living in. The Age of Opinion -- where facts do not shape our opinions, and instead, our opinions determine what our minds are willing to accept as fact.

I suppose some people don't want truth. They just want to feel confirmed.
Confirmation bias is EF's jam...
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  #28090  
Old 03.08.2021, 09:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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A new report from the KFF "COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases Are Extremely Rare, According to KFF US States Data Analysis". CDC reports were national, this is by State.

The rate of breakthrough cases reported among those fully vaccinated is well below 1% in all reporting states, ranging from 0.01% in Connecticut to 0.29% in Alaska.

The rates of death among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 were even lower, effectively zero (0.00%) in all but two reporting states, Arkansas and Michigan where they were 0.01%. (Note: Deaths may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)
It's interesting to see these studies emerge. I found myself wondering last night if the majority of breakthrough cases that did require hospitalization have been among the elderly. It seems I remember reading once that the elderly tend to not have as strong of a response to the vaccine(s) as younger people due to the elderly usually having a weaker immune system in general.
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  #28091  
Old 03.08.2021, 10:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's interesting to see these studies emerge. I found myself wondering last night if the majority of breakthrough cases that did require hospitalization have been among the elderly. It seems I remember reading once that the elderly tend to not have as strong of a response to the vaccine(s) as younger people due to the elderly usually having a weaker immune system in general.
Immune system decline in the elderly is called Immunesenescence.

Of course, there are many people who have reduced immune systems for reasons like being born with a weak immune system, gettting a disease that weakens your immune system, having a medical treatement, &&.

There is some research that suggest in the US 3% of the people have a weakened immune system so less than 1% of deaths from breakthrough infections is really positive.
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  #28092  
Old 03.08.2021, 10:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's interesting to see these studies emerge. I found myself wondering last night if the majority of breakthrough cases that did require hospitalization have been among the elderly. It seems I remember reading once that the elderly tend to not have as strong of a response to the vaccine(s) as younger people due to the elderly usually having a weaker immune system in general.
Indeed, I would not be surprised if research shows that the risk of breakthroughs increases with age and time after vaccination. If so, we will have boosters for the elderly soon.

Another interesting piece I heard in a podcast was that instead of creating boosters tailored to Delta or another specific variant, there is research ongoing for a general Corona virus vaccine which would work against all Corona virus. So including SARS and MERS. Interested to hear more on this if anyone knows.
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  #28093  
Old 03.08.2021, 10:21
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Re: Coronavirus

Already happening this fall in Germany; yesterday the general press announced boosters for elderly and others.
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  #28094  
Old 03.08.2021, 10:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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There is some research that suggest in the US 3% of the people have a weakened immune system so less than 1% of deaths from breakthrough infections is really positive.

Are those 3% measured before or after the deaths are taken in account?
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  #28095  
Old 03.08.2021, 10:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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Google is your friend. But on the offchance this is a request in good faith:

Someone opposed to the idea of vaccination. Not someone who cannot have a vaccine due to medical reasons.
But nobody, or practically nobody is opposed to vaccination on principle.

Maybe individual vaccinations for different reasons. But not all vaccinations on principle.

The term anti-vaxxer is being increasingly used to tar people who ask unpleasant questions or doubt any aspect of present policy or its implementation.

It has evolved to a vacuous empty term that is used to huff away any critical questions or opinions.
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  #28096  
Old 03.08.2021, 11:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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But nobody, or practically nobody is opposed to vaccination on principle.

Maybe individual vaccinations for different reasons. But not all vaccinations on principle.

The term anti-vaxxer is being increasingly used to tar people who ask unpleasant questions or doubt any aspect of present policy or its implementation.
The problem is with many of them they've become so engrained in the whole ideology that 'big pharma' is out to get them they will literally believe anything from bitchute/youtube or similar which agrees with their confirmation bias of mass conspiracy, 'big reset' etc. and goes against mainstream thinking.

You only have to look at people posting supposed videos of cutlery sticking to the arms of vaccinated people to see how far the rabbit hole some of these folks have gone. I had one guy on Facebook basically wish anyone having the vaccine dead only last week because of the 'nanobots and smart dust you've been injected with' and that he 'expects us all to be dead soon from the side effects'. This is a guy who two years ago was relatively normal and now is posting a constant stream of anti-vax and anti-covid propaganda on his social media.

I'll add this was the same guy who was filming himself shouting and NHS staff in the UK trying to make him wear a mask in a hospital where he'd deliberately gone in to cause trouble without a mask on.

I know another guy whose followers posting these cutlery and other bull videos on bitchute has gone from 1k to 9k followers on Facebook in a matter of a couple of months.

Last edited by Spaceghost; 03.08.2021 at 11:50.
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  #28097  
Old 03.08.2021, 11:42
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Re: Coronavirus

I was wondering how to pronounce Immunosenescence

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  #28098  
Old 03.08.2021, 11:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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The problem is with many of them they've become so engrained in the whole ideology that 'big pharma' is out to get them they will literally believe anything from bitchute/youtube or similar which agrees with their confirmation bias of mass conspiracy, 'big reset' etc. and goes against mainstream thinking.

You only have to look at people posting supposed videos of cutlery sticking to the arms of vaccinated people to see how far the rabbit hole some of these folks have gone. I had one guy on Facebook basically wish anyone having the vaccine dead only last week because of the 'nanobots and smart dust you've been injected with' and that he 'expects us all to be dead soon from the side effects'.
Is it any wonder though? Since 2016 there has been collective failure and almost a complete breakdown in mainstream media, social media/big tech. They've tried to control the narrative (which in the information age is utterly impossible). This unfortunately has resulted in more and more people being pushed into extreme positions.
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  #28099  
Old 03.08.2021, 12:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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The problem is with many of them they've become so engrained in the whole ideology that 'big pharma' is out to get them they will literally believe anything from bitchute/youtube or similar which agrees with their confirmation bias of mass conspiracy, 'big reset' etc. and goes against mainstream thinking.

You only have to look at people posting supposed videos of cutlery sticking to the arms of vaccinated people to see how far the rabbit hole some of these folks have gone. I had one guy on Facebook basically wish anyone having the vaccine dead only last week because of the 'nanobots and smart dust you've been injected with' and that he 'expects us all to be dead soon from the side effects'. This is a guy who two years ago was relatively normal and now is posting a constant stream of anti-vax and anti-covid propaganda on his social media.
Strange that I've never met anybody like that myself. I have met very many people with real doubts and whose questions are not being answered, but who the media likes to portray as the types that you describe.

Have you considered that maybe it's precisely because these so called anti-vaxxers don't recognize themselves in all these extreme media caricatures, that they don't take the media very seriously?

You can't have a dialogue if one side is doing all the talking and they're obviously talking out of their arse.
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Old 03.08.2021, 13:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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Google is your friend. But on the offchance this is a request in good faith:

Someone opposed to the idea of vaccination. Not someone who cannot have a vaccine due to medical reasons.
Appreciate the understanding. It was aimed more at the general meaning of AV on this forum. For me (as it sounds so), it is someone against on grounds of harm if taken , and actively discourages others to take.

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