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  #31661  
Old 21.10.2021, 11:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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I NEVER said either was more or less risky.
From your posts, I would assume that you think the vaccination is more risky than the disease.

Would that be a correct assumption?

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Comparing this scenario to Russian roullette is just crass.
I was trying to explain it in simple relative terms.

If you would rather everything was in absolute terms then I would suggest you are way out with your thinking that the vaccine is such a high risk that it is better that most people (apart from the elderly et al) don't have it and take a risk with the disease.
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  #31662  
Old 21.10.2021, 11:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just returned from the UK. Firstly in England, no masks, restrictions, Covid passes and life starting to appear normal. One sees very few masks in shops and on public transport.

Had to head north of the border to Calvinist Scotland to meet my wife where it was like stepping back in time 12 months. Even worse than Switzerland, track and trace, masks mandates, socially distanced restaurants. Ironic considering that the current Covid numbers are exactly the same as in England
Fortunately, there as here, the mere mention that one is mask exempt is accepted without question.
In England, no masks, restrictions, Covid passes and life starting to appear normal
Britain has registered nearly half a million cases in the past two weeks -- and almost 50,000 on Monday -- more than France, Germany, Italy and Spain combined.

I think we have different definitons of "normal".
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  #31663  
Old 21.10.2021, 14:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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In England, no masks, restrictions, Covid passes and life starting to appear normal
Britain has registered nearly half a million cases in the past two weeks -- and almost 50,000 on Monday -- more than France, Germany, Italy and Spain combined.

I think we have different definitons of "normal".
So what do you want to do? Do you know how many cases were registered in the UK on Freedom Day 18th July the day BEFORE most restrictions were removed in England? 47 thousand, that with masks, social distancing, the full works. Almost exactly the same as the numbers we have today.

Even today Wales, which has kept mask mandates, has higher case rates than in England. With 80% of those eligible (12 and over) fully vaccinated too.

Your comparisons to Germany, France and Italy are meaningless because the same will happen there too (I notice you've gone quiet on Florida all of a sudden ). The UK is just ahead of the curve, Israel was the first.
That you're still making these comparisons show that you have no concept of the reasons behind why this is happening.

The vaccines don't prevent contraction or transmission of the virus. Coupled with waning efficacy this picture will soon be reflected across the whole of Europe as we enter the winter months. Only this winter we have the real possibility of people freezing to death thanks to the lockdowns that have taken place.



https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833
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  #31664  
Old 21.10.2021, 15:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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The vaccines don't prevent contraction or transmission of the virus.
Which is not the same as saying they reduce the chance of contraction and of transmission.

Why didn't you write something like that?

What do you think the vaccines do?
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  #31665  
Old 21.10.2021, 15:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which is not the same as saying they reduce the chance of contraction and of transmission.

Why didn't you write something like that?

What do you think the vaccines do?
They significantly lower the chances of hospitalizations and death from Covid. However they're less effective in older people, who are far more likely to be affected by Covid, and their effect wears off over time.

The result of this means that if we keep obsessing over the numbers we're never going to be satisfied because this virus shows no sign of going away. People will continue to get Covid, and people will continue to die of Covid in their thousands. This situation is as good as it's going to be and we need to move on.
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  #31666  
Old 21.10.2021, 15:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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They significantly lower the chances of hospitalizations and death from Covid. However they're less effective in older people, who are far more likely to be affected by Covid, and their effect wears off over time.
They also reduce symptoms which in turn reduces transmission rates.

They also stop most people from getting COVID.

(Not sure where you get your data from to show otherwise)

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The result of this means that if we keep obsessing over the numbers.
There's obsessing over the numbers and ignoring them completely by saying things like "The vaccines don't prevent contraction or transmission of the virus".

That's just not true.
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Old 21.10.2021, 15:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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They also reduce symptoms which in turn reduces transmission rates.

They also stop most people from getting COVID.

(Not sure where you get your data from to show otherwise)

"The vaccines don't prevent contraction or transmission of the virus".

That's just not true.
This is very much true, they don't prevent it. They reduce the chances
contraction and transmission, and as time goes by this effect wanes.

I get my data from PHE report (look at Table 2 and Figure 2). Also see how the picture has progressed since the start of the vaccine rollout, there's a very clear trend of waning efficacy. This is exactly the same as what was seen in Israel, and we can soon look forward to seeing here.

There are factors that differ between countries like diet, obesity, general healthy etc. however ultimately human physiology remains the same. Marton would do well to remember that when cases start to spike again in Europe.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...rt-week-41.pdf
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  #31668  
Old 21.10.2021, 15:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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They also reduce symptoms which in turn reduces transmission rates.

They also stop most people from getting COVID.

(Not sure where you get your data from to show otherwise)

There's obsessing over the numbers and ignoring them completely by saying things like "The vaccines don't prevent contraction or transmission of the virus".

That's just not true.

Here is some very clear data. These infographics from the CBC news in Canada give a really good representation of the relative risk of hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and deaths in vaccinated versus unvaccinated persons broken down by age. Sure, vaccines don't work 100%, but the reduction in severe outcomes conferred by vaccination is so, so clear. And it's very sad that Alberta has so many active cases they have been able to compile these statistics. They declared COVID over and lifted all restrictions, they now have record ICU admissions and have had to cancel all elective surgeries, they've suspended organ transplanation, and more. :-(


Images linked from: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...tion-1.6178449 the article is worth a read.











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  #31669  
Old 21.10.2021, 17:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is very much true, they don't prevent it. They reduce the chances
contraction and transmission, and as time goes by this effect wanes.

I get my data from PHE report (look at Table 2 and Figure 2). Also see how the picture has progressed since the start of the vaccine rollout, there's a very clear trend of waning efficacy. This is exactly the same as what was seen in Israel, and we can soon look forward to seeing here.

There are factors that differ between countries like diet, obesity, general healthy etc. however ultimately human physiology remains the same. Marton would do well to remember that when cases start to spike again in Europe.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...rt-week-41.pdf
Sure, and if 100% of people were to be vaccinated then the PHE reports would show 100% of the hospitalised are vaccinated thus proving vaccines do not work at all
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Old 21.10.2021, 18:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sure, and if 100% of people were to be vaccinated then the PHE reports would show 100% of the hospitalised are vaccinated thus proving vaccines do not work at all
If 100% of people vaccinated (which will never happen btw) we would still see plenty of people dying and going to hospital due to Covid.

Let's put it in a way so that people can see what the issue is. From the PHE report I posted above between week 37 and week 40:

The total number of Covid hospitalizations for those vaccinated over 70 was higher than the total number of Covid hospitalizations for everyone unvaccinated under 70 (1736 for vaccinated over 70s v 1622 unvaccinated under 70s). For deaths the problem is even more stark 2180 Covid deaths for vaccinated over 70s v 381 unvaccinated under 70s).

Point is, this is a virus that predominately affects old people, and the vaccine hasn't changed that. What this report doesn't reflect is that this summer in the UK there has been thousands of excess deaths across all age groups that are non-Covid related, now what could be the cause of that?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ing-not-covid/
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  #31671  
Old 21.10.2021, 18:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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If 100% of people vaccinated (which will never happen btw) we would still see plenty of people dying and going to hospital due to Covid.

Let's put it in a way so that people can see what the issue is. From the PHE report I posted above between week 37 and week 40:

The total number of Covid hospitalizations for those vaccinated over 70 was higher than the total number of Covid hospitalizations for everyone unvaccinated under 70 (1736 for vaccinated over 70s v 1622 unvaccinated under 70s). For deaths the problem is even more stark 2180 Covid deaths for vaccinated over 70s v 381 unvaccinated under 70s).

Point is, this is a virus that predominately affects old people, and the vaccine hasn't changed that. What this report doesn't reflect is that this summer in the UK there has been thousands of excess deaths across all age groups that are non-Covid related, now what could be the cause of that?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ing-not-covid/
You need to understand your statistics better.
In the UK around 92% of the over 70s are vaccinated.

From your numbers, only 52% of the hospitalised are of the vaccinated over 70s.

If we turn the numbers around, 8% of the over 70s are unvaccinated but they are 48% of the hospitalised.

The vaccines are doing a great job!
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  #31672  
Old 21.10.2021, 19:56
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Re: Coronavirus

The "Lab Escape" is getting more and more official every day:


https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/n...ve-days-report
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Old 21.10.2021, 22:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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You need to understand your statistics better.
In the UK around 92% of the over 70s are vaccinated.

From your numbers, only 52% of the hospitalised are of the vaccinated over 70s.

If we turn the numbers around, 8% of the over 70s are unvaccinated but they are 48% of the hospitalised.

The vaccines are doing a great job!
The vaccines are doing a good job because only 5% of UK hospitalizations are currently due to Covid. The infections will continue to be high though because the vaccines aren't as good at preventing infection/transmission. This is why people need to get over the numbers and start returning to normal.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 22.10.2021 at 08:28. Reason: Removed deleted quote and reply to it.
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Old 22.10.2021, 07:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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The "Lab Escape" is getting more and more official every day:


https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/n...ve-days-report
Well, it's slowly moving out of "don't be silly" territory into "there may be something in it". I'd frankly be surprised if any bio-safety level lab 4 connected with any government wasn't doing "gain of function" experiments. But then I'm a bit of a cynic.

Zerohedge - they're the ones who published about electoral fraud last year, and conspiracies this year concerning inexpensive suppressed drug therapies against covid? I think perhaps they're pushing an agenda.
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  #31675  
Old 22.10.2021, 08:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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The "Lab Escape" is getting more and more official every day:


https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/n...ve-days-report
I don't know if COVID can be attributed only to lab leaks in CHina, but whatever the truth of it is, US and Europe would be very supportive of anything that damages China reputationally at the moment. China will soon eclipse Russia (by far) as being the dominant rival superpower within this world as their economic and military reach only increases, and will soon pose a threat that cannot be curbed without direct military action, which no-one is going to risk unless China starts something first.

As a result, I am pretty convinced that the US and Europe are going to do everything they can to prove that China started COVID and to weaken their position on the world stage. I think we are going to see an increasing amount of anti-China sentiment in the next decades as long as their current political and militaristic trajectory continues.
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  #31676  
Old 22.10.2021, 09:05
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Re: The Swiss Coronavirus thread.

Some words to the wise,from the New York Times.
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England’s gamble on virus restrictions
Four months ago, England started a grand epidemiological experiment, lifting virtually all coronavirus restrictions at once, even in the face of a high daily rate of infections. Its leaders justified the approach on the grounds that the country’s rapid rollout of vaccines had weakened the link between infection and serious illness.
Now, with cases, hospital admissions and deaths all rising again, the effect of vaccines beginning to wear off and winter looming, the strategy of learning to live with the virus is coming under its stiffest test yet.
New cases exceeded 50,000 on Thursday, an 18 percent increase over the average number in the past week and the second time cases had broken that psychological barrier since July. The number of people admitted to hospitals rose 15.4 percent over the same period, reaching 959, while 115 people died of Covid-19, an increase of almost 11 percent.
Quotable: “Everything is hitting us at once,” said Tim Spector, a professor of genetic epidemiology at King’s College London. “My view is that we’re in a no man’s land.”
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Old 22.10.2021, 09:18
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Re: The Swiss Coronavirus thread.

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Some words to the wise,from the New York Times.
Quote:
England’s gamble on virus restrictions
Four months ago, England started a grand epidemiological experiment, lifting virtually all coronavirus restrictions at once, even in the face of a high daily rate of infections. Its leaders justified the approach on the grounds that the country’s rapid rollout of vaccines had weakened the link between infection and serious illness.
Now, with cases, hospital admissions and deaths all rising again, the effect of vaccines beginning to wear off and winter looming, the strategy of learning to live with the virus is coming under its stiffest test yet.
New cases exceeded 50,000 on Thursday, an 18 percent increase over the average number in the past week and the second time cases had broken that psychological barrier since July. The number of people admitted to hospitals rose 15.4 percent over the same period, reaching 959, while 115 people died of Covid-19, an increase of almost 11 percent.
Quotable: “Everything is hitting us at once,” said Tim Spector, a professor of genetic epidemiology at King’s College London. “My view is that we’re in a no man’s land.”
The New York Times proving once again that it is no longer a serious newspaper. If the UK isn't careful then there's a chance the UK could reach the lowest confidence interval of the best case scenario predicted by SAGE



https://data.spectator.co.uk/category/sage-scenarios
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Old 22.10.2021, 10:41
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Re: The Swiss Coronavirus thread.

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The New York Times proving once again that it is no longer a serious newspaper. If the UK isn't careful then there's a chance the UK could reach the lowest confidence interval of the best case scenario predicted by SAGE



https://data.spectator.co.uk/category/sage-scenarios
The red line on your graph is not on the original pointed to in your link. What does this line mean and where does it come from; it is not a trend line?
Edit: Dear mods, this should not be in the Swiss thread?

Last edited by marton; 22.10.2021 at 11:31.
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Old 22.10.2021, 16:55
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Re: The Swiss Coronavirus thread.

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The red line on your graph is not on the original pointed to in your link. What does this line mean and where does it come from; it is not a trend line?
Edit: Dear mods, this should not be in the Swiss thread?
The fake insert appears to be by one Christopher Snowdon, a maniacal twitterati. Of course anybody can bastardise anything they want before putting it online.
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Old 22.10.2021, 17:04
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Re: The Swiss Coronavirus thread.

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The fake insert appears to be by one Christopher Snowdon, a maniacal twitterati. Of course anybody can bastardise anything they want before putting it online.
Thanks.
So the claim it was an original graph from Sage was incorrect.
In principle when people manipulate information from reputable sources they should explain the changes so we are correctly informed..
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