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  #5121  
Old 25.03.2020, 17:26
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Re: Coronavirus

Am I still the only one on this forum who thinks V__ is trolling? Or are people still getting angry at me for making such call?
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  #5122  
Old 25.03.2020, 17:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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Articles that quote anonymous people and that falsely interpret sources are not to be taken serious imho.
True. There are a lot of problems with the article. The main postulate there is that most of those who died with the virus would've died without it anyway. But what do we do with front line doctors' reports of tsunami of patients with the same life-threatening pneumonia? Then small things like "Korea didn't lock down, didn't close schools but not many people died there" without any mentioning of the extensive testing and tracing there from early on, among other measures...
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  #5123  
Old 25.03.2020, 17:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Read the numbers I left, Flu is far more deadly than COV

Just because you are bombarded with COV news doesn't make it more dangerous or deadly

20000 people died so far from COV in the entire world

2017 in Italy ONLY 25000 people died from flu

But I guess people like to be scared and panic rather than read actual numbers and scientific reports
You could also question how many people would die from flu if the same measures would be taken as for corona.
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  #5124  
Old 25.03.2020, 17:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Swiss infectiologist believes the lockdown is a political decision and not a scientific
Last time I checked the Federal Council was made up of politicians and politicians only. Some may have a scientific background (doubt it, but still) but that doesn't take away the fact that they're politicians. As such each and every decision taken by them is a political one.

What you quote is a poster case of framing for personal reasons and a shame for anybody claiming to be a scientist.
In fact he demonstrates that he's anything but, otherwise he'd first test his hypothesis.
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  #5125  
Old 25.03.2020, 17:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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Last time I checked the Federal Council was made up of politicians and politicians only. Some may have a scientific background (doubt it, but still) but that doesn't take away the fact that they're politicians. As such each and every decision taken by them is a political one.

What you quote is a poster case of framing for personal reasons and a shame for anybody claiming to be a scientist.
In fact he demonstrates that he's anything but, otherwise he'd first test his hypothesis.
He is Chefarzt Klinik für Infektiologie und Spitalhygiene am Kantonsspital St.Gallen

If we can't trust him, who do we trust?

The point he is making is that politicians are bringing their own decisions without much consultation with scientists

In Sweden and Netherlands the government is enforcing the decisions of the scientists, not the other way around
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  #5126  
Old 25.03.2020, 17:43
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Re: Coronavirus

An alternative view, but not conclusive

Malaria Drug Chloroquine No Better Than Regular Coronavirus Care, Study Finds
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  #5127  
Old 25.03.2020, 17:54
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Re: Coronavirus

Seems that not everybody knows where to find the ignore a specific user function. (I just had somebody PM me about this)

Go to V__ 's (or whomever) public profile.

Select "users list"

Choose "add to ignore list"

And now he can blablabla about how much worse the flu is without you having to be disturbed by it.
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  #5128  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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An alternative view, but not conclusive

Malaria Drug Chloroquine No Better Than Regular Coronavirus Care, Study Finds
Yes, and the FRench papers and news are full re the effect of this anti-malaria drug- because of the findings at Marseille Institute for infectious deseases, and Professor Didier Raoult. One of the fascinating thing recently, is how different the news are depending on whether you watch Swiss, French, USA or British TV- and I imagine media from other countries. Sometimes I wonder if they are talking about the same issues at all - as the angle is so different.
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  #5129  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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In Sweden and Netherlands the government is enforcing the decisions of the scientists, not the other way around
What's this about Sweden anyway? They seem to be not different from other European countries, their rate is just as steep. Slightly behind us time-wise.

Last edited by jimk; 25.03.2020 at 18:15.
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  #5130  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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He is Chefarzt Klinik für Infektiologie und Spitalhygiene am Kantonsspital St.Gallen

If we can't trust him, who do we trust?

The point he is making is that politicians are bringing their own decisions without much consultation with scientists

In Sweden and Netherlands the government is enforcing the decisions of the scientists, not the other way around
He may be a good doc, or just someone who knows how to use the elbows, but as such doesn't make him a good scientist (researcher).

Again you're framing politics as inherently bad, at least bad decision taking. Please describe how the Council arrived at their decision. Obviously you must know this or you couldn't honestly make that claim.
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  #5131  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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He may be a good doc, or just someone who knows how to use the elbows, but as such doesn't make him a good scientist.

Again you're framing politics as inherently bad. Please describe how the Council arrived at their decision. Obviously you must know this or you couldn't make that claim.
I see the Council has closed up for 6 weeks with no clear idea how to beat this thing and they are just buying time.

They've made a popular decision to show to the people that they are concerned and that they are doing something

In 6 weeks time will be up, no vaccine in sight what do you bet they will do?

On the other hand, how do you justify their decision and where do you see the solution in sight? We will all be closed up for 12-18 months until a vaccine is found?
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  #5132  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Read the numbers I left, Flu is far more deadly than COV

Just because you are bombarded with COV news doesn't make it more dangerous or deadly

20000 people died so far from COV in the entire world

2017 in Italy ONLY 25000 people died from flu

But I guess people like to be scared and panic rather than read actual numbers and scientific reports
You're comparing an entire year with an infection that only took hold in February in Italy - barely a month ago - and that was largely confined to one region until it spread. You've made your point, that you think this is a fuss about nothing. But let's wait until a comparable period is available. The coronavirus deaths will be far greater despite the whole of Italy being locked down. What do you think the final tallies would be if everyone in Italy was trying to go about their business as normal, with a totally collapsed health service and people dying unaided in their homes?

Try comparing oranges with oranges for once.
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  #5133  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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Read the numbers I left, Flu is far more deadly than COV


2017 in Italy ONLY 25000 people died from flu

But I guess people like to be scared and panic rather than read actual numbers and scientific reports
Italy Covid deaths about 6000 in one month = 72,000 per year if this does not stop, and this is mostly in the north and not the whole country....
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  #5134  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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Read the numbers I left, Flu is far more deadly than COV

Just because you are bombarded with COV news doesn't make it more dangerous or deadly

20000 people died so far from COV in the entire world

2017 in Italy ONLY 25000 people died from flu

But I guess people like to be scared and panic rather than read actual numbers and scientific reports
It's not always about the actual numbers of deaths after the fact, it's about the potential for damage. If COV is 2x more contagious than flu and has up to 10x higher mortality rate then equals a lot more potential dead in a short period of time than can be possible with flu over an equivalent timeframe. That means significantly more disruption to economy, services etc than flu causes.

You are not considering your arguments fully or appreciating the complexity of the situation, but sure if it makes you feel better... you, a random guy on an internet forum, know better than the WHO and the worlds foremost pandemic experts.

Last edited by Chuff; 25.03.2020 at 18:59.
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  #5135  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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You're comparing an entire year with an infection that only took hold in February in Italy - barely a month ago - and that was largely confined to one region until it spread. You've made your point, that you think this is a fuss about nothing. But let's wait until a comparable period is available. The coronavirus deaths will be far greater despite the whole of Italy being locked down. What do you think the final tallies would be if everyone in Italy was trying to go about their business as normal, with a totally collapsed health service and people dying unaided in their homes?

Try comparing oranges with oranges for once.
In Italy 50-75% of the tested positive are not showing any signs, they are only spreading the virus

https://www.repubblica.it/salute/med...osi-251474302/

The virus didn't appear 3 weeks ago, it has been spereading for a while and it has been spreading without us noticing it. Confinement is totally futile
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  #5136  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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I see the Council has closed up for 6 weeks with no clear idea how to beat this thing and they are just buying time.

They've made a popular decision to show to the people that they are concerned and that they are doing something

In 6 weeks time will be up, no vaccine in sight what do you bet they will do?

On the other hand, how do you justify their decision and where do you see the solution in sight? We will all be closed up for 12-18 months until a vaccine is found?
So you don't know how they got there, have no idea who they consulted with, what their internal experts said, or even a glimpse of what data they relied on. Not a single shred of evidence.

The best you have is an individual's opinion who provides no evidence either.

In other words, much as you're trying to move the goalpost now, you're talking out of your ass.

Have a nice day.

PS:
You may want to look up the meaning of 'argument from authority' aka 'argumentum at verecundiam'.
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  #5137  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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So you don't know how they got there, have no idea who they consulted with, what their internal experts said, or even a glimpse of what data they relied on. Not a single shred of evidence.

The best you have is an individual's opinion who provides no evidence either.

In other words, much as you're trying to move the goalpost now, you're talking out of your ass.

Have a nice day.

PS:
You may want to look up the meaning of 'argument from authority' aka 'argumentum at verecundiam'.
I gave my argument, my opinion, I backed everything with facts, not opinions, not fake news, but facts, numbers, scientific reports

What did you give to prove me wrong?
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  #5138  
Old 25.03.2020, 18:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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He may be a good doc, or just someone who knows how to use the elbows, but as such doesn't make him a good scientist (researcher).

Again you're framing politics as inherently bad, at least bad decision taking. Please describe how the Council arrived at their decision. Obviously you must know this or you couldn't honestly make that claim.
I've followed all of the government press briefings in the USA and UK where the experts calmly and methodically walked through their scientific reasoning and overall assessment. All of it was easy-to-follow and allowed me to reach my own conclusions. We also have the benefit of snapshots in time gathered at the epicentre in Wuhan and Italy to see what worse case looks like.

Finally you just have to look at the way Trump is enacting these policies through clenched teeth to know that he really has no choice; A man who a few weeks ago was calling it a Dem Hoax. Behind closed doors He's done all the screaming and shouting, begging and pleading before realising that hurting the economy is the lesser of the two evils. You're not going to find a bigger sceptic than that.
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Old 25.03.2020, 18:56
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Re: Coronavirus

Many people these days suddenly realise that they are married.With kids.
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  #5140  
Old 25.03.2020, 19:00
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Many people these days suddenly realise that they are married.With kids.
Welcome back.
Only one day in the sin bin.
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