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  #5961  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:29
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Re: Coronavirus

The epidemic starts to show in the numbers

https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home...ses-death.html
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  #5962  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why Covid-19 deaths are a substantial over-estimate

Many UK health spokespersons have been careful to repeatedly say that the numbers quoted in the UK indicate death with the virus, not death due to the virus – this matters. When giving evidence in parliament a few days ago, Prof. Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London said that he now expects fewer than 20,000 Covid-19 deaths in the UK but, importantly, two-thirds of these people would have died anyway. In other words, he suggests that the crude figure for ‘Covid deaths’ is three times higher than the number who have actually been killed by Covid-19. (Even the two-thirds figure is an estimate – it would not surprise me if the real proportion is higher.)

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...vid-19-deaths-
This is another clear example of your behaviour, you never post about the ones they miss whom have died of Coronavirus but are not in the statistics.
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  #5963  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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But isn't it also the case that the virus hit Switzerland (from Italy to TI, but also from elsewhere because ZH and GE are much bigger international travel hubs than Sweden) a lot earlier than it has hit Sweden?
Actual numbers say that corona virus appeared first in Sweden, 1 month before Switzerland.

First confirmed case in Sweden, 31 January 2020

First confirmed case in Switzerland, 25 February

So Sweden has been "hit" with corona virus 1 month before Switzerland... But the wave still must be coming?
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  #5964  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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The only deletions I'm aware of were indeed to remove some trolling fake claims, and the replies to them that quoted them, so I guess it's one of those you're referring to. [Edit, yes, it was when he'd posted some clearly fake photos claiming to be Sweden now, and you pointed out that the trees couldn't be in leaf. I couldn't leave your refutation without also leaving the claim it was refuting].

It's difficult to act as arbiters of truth, and in general it's not our job to do so. It's up to individual members, not the mods, to try to ensure balance in what's posted, by continuing to point out incorrect or false claims.

It's annoying, I know, but there's no rule about posting only verified "facts", so unless it's clear that someone's just trolling by repeating the same garbage, there's not a lot we can do.
But if a person is deliberately and constantly trying to disrupt a topic and uses lies and falsified info and constantly repeating non-relevant info to do so I'd say it is the task of staff to make that person stop doing so, wether that be through a private talk or a ban is up to staff. In my eyes how he is handled here is a joke up to now.
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  #5965  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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But if a person is deliberately and constantly trying to disrupt a topic and uses lies and falsified info and constantly repeating non-relevant info to do so I'd say it is the task of staff to make that person stop doing so, wether that be through a private talk or a ban is up to staff. In my eyes how he is handled here is a joke up to now.
He's showing the topic from the other side with other motives.
Same as some experts are looking at short term effects, others are looking further down the line. Neither are wrong and different people will fall to one side or the other. Some will cite moral superiority and others will cite scientific rational.

I'd like to continue hearing both sides.
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  #5966  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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@ V__

Thank you for posting the chart of COVID-19 versus other pandemics.

Very frightening to see how high COVID-19 is on the chart after only three months.

Very sporting of you to share this chart when it contradicts your usual line that COVID-19 is nothing to worry about.

Please do also post updated charts.
At the moment COVID-19 is 10 times less deadly than swine flue and 15 times less deadly than seasonal flu

I find it sad that you seem to be rooting for more casualties from COVID -19 to feed your panic frenzy
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  #5967  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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At the moment COVID-19 is 10 times less deadly than swine flue and 15 times less deadly than seasonal flu
After a quick Google this would appear to be patently false. Where are you getting your figures from?
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  #5968  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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He's showing the topic from the other side with other motives.
Same as some experts are looking at short term effects, others are looking further down the line. Neither are wrong and different people will fall to one side or the other. Some will cite moral superiority and others will cite scientific rational.

I'd like to continue hearing both sides.
I should think so too. I would certainly hope we encourage dialogue from multiple angles and multiple timeframes, and I wish I would see more of that in the public sphere too. The tides are starting to turn slightly, as more people seem to realize that this isn't just about some virus, and start to question deeper motives of some people and states as well as the efficiency and proportionality of the hasty measures that have been taken, not to mention social and psychological factors and behavior in all this. Thankfully, we still have something like that pesky freedom of speech around here that allows those who choose to critically reflect and question as well as voice their opinions without fearing consequences, and even if these may go against that of a majority.
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  #5969  
Old 02.04.2020, 12:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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He's showing the topic from the other side with other motives.
Same as some experts are looking at short term effects, others are looking further down the line. Neither are wrong and different people will fall to one side or the other. Some will cite moral superiority and others will cite scientific rational.

I'd like to continue hearing both sides.
What other motives? I'm rather bewildered at the seeming insistence on downplaying this pandemic.
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  #5970  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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After a quick Google this would appear to be patently false. Where are you getting your figures from?
WHO estimates that seasonal influenza may result in 290 000-650 000 deaths each year due to respiratory diseases alone.

CDC estimates 150k-575k swine flu deaths
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  #5971  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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At the moment COVID-19 is 10 times less deadly than swine flue and 15 times less deadly than seasonal flu

I find it sad that you seem to be rooting for more casualties from COVID -19 to feed your panic frenzy
Silly example:

A red plane with 10 passengers has crashed and 10 people died.
A blue plane with 100 passengers is still falling so nobody dead yet.

You: red planes cause more deaths.
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  #5972  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:02
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Re: Coronavirus

Comparing estimates with confirmed cases is simply said: Incredible stupid.
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  #5973  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:04
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Re: Coronavirus

I was just about to reply to V with this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1585825369491

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1585825369491

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1585825369491



I'm not sure what "other side" is being argued. This is an incredibly contagious, deadly virus. To say otherwise is, at best, naive.
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  #5974  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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After a quick Google this would appear to be patently false. Where are you getting your figures from?

Its V, so he's either making them up or not bothering to properly read and consider the complete text and source. Must say I give his Google search and Copy Paste skills an A, but as to content a complete Fail.

Makes you wonder if there should be a daily/weekly limit on how many posts someone should be allowed to make and whether a couple of days timeout i in order
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Old 02.04.2020, 13:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Its V, so he's either making them up or not bothering to properly read and consider the complete text and source. Must say I give his Google search and Copy Paste skills an A, but as to content a complete Fail.

Makes you wonder if there should be a daily/weekly limit on how many posts someone should be allowed to make and whether a couple of days timeout i in order
It is funny sometimes, like one moment he says lock-down is useless, then he later makes another point and uses an article in a failed attempt to proof his stupid point but he misses that the article also states that lock-downs are a mandatory part of fighting the virus. So his own links are contradicting him.
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  #5976  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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What other motives? I'm rather bewildered at the seeming insistence on downplaying this pandemic.
From what I've seeing is that in the short term we are halting deaths due to hospital overload. In the long term there will be a lot of closed workplaces and bankrupt companies. Unemployment has a correlation with a higher mortality rate.

There is a balance to be found between short term and long term goals, a higher number of coronavirus victims now might save a larger number of "silent" deaths in the future. I think the measures we have in place for the moment are adequate for the current status, however they will need to be reviewed for the duration for which they must be continued.

I realise this sounds like some of what the orange man has said, but there's some truth in there that should be explored.
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  #5977  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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From what I've seeing is that in the short term we are halting deaths due to hospital overload. In the long term there will be a lot of closed workplaces and bankrupt companies. Unemployment has a correlation with a higher mortality rate.

There is a balance to be found between short term and long term goals, a higher number of coronavirus victims now might save a larger number of "silent" deaths in the future. I think the measures we have in place for the moment are adequate for the current status, however they will need to be reviewed for the duration for which they must be continued.

I realise this sounds like some of what the orange man has said, but there's some truth in there that should be explored.
Agree (including re orange man), and would add that there won't just be silent deaths, but actual other crises that will lead to deaths, particularly in the global South, though parts of the global North too. Which of course people don't think about. Switzerland is an extremely cushy place to be, few people here will lose their homes and jobs with zero help from anyone, let alone run out of food. What do people think will happen in some countries that are now deploying authoritarian measures (and these countries aren't far away)? Or how do people think parts of Asia and LatAm, not to mention Africa, will fare in an extended lockdown? And yes, personally I happen to care about that too.
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  #5978  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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From what I've seeing is that in the short term we are halting deaths due to hospital overload. In the long term there will be a lot of closed workplaces and bankrupt companies. Unemployment has a correlation with a higher mortality rate.

There is a balance to be found between short term and long term goals, a higher number of coronavirus victims now might save a larger number of "silent" deaths in the future. I think the measures we have in place for the moment are adequate for the current status, however they will need to be reviewed for the duration for which they must be continued.

I realise this sounds like some of what the orange man has said, but there's some truth in there that should be explored.
But that's the whole point of extended lockdown. To minimise exposure and risks.

Sounds awfully like prices being put on heads to me. I wonder how folk arguing thusly would feel if the corona victims were their loved ones... and not "just" faceless statistics. I don't think this is a winning humanitarian argument. Rather it's an elite, blinkered "bubble" viewpoint. As with most situations in life, the more resources one has the better. However this awful virus does not appear to respect a healthy bank balance in a Western society.
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Old 02.04.2020, 13:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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It is funny sometimes, like one moment he says lock-down is useless, then he later makes another point and uses an article in a failed attempt to proof his stupid point but he misses that the article also states that lock-downs are a mandatory part of fighting the virus. So his own links are contradicting him.
It's called "trolling". He just arguing for the sake of it, he's not interested in promoting any view whatsoever, he just wants to get a reaction from people. Quite sad really. We don't know what the moderators are doing behind the scenes however, so I'm not blaming them - they have access to more information than we mere mortals.

Until then, just put him on your ignore list. He'll stop getting a reaction and wander off eventually.
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  #5980  
Old 02.04.2020, 13:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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But that's the whole point of extended lockdown. To minimise exposure and risks.

Sounds awfully like prices being put on heads to me. I wonder how folk arguing thusly would feel if the corona victims were their loved ones... and not "just" faceless statistics. I don't think this is a winning humanitarian argument. Rather it's an elite, blinkered "bubble" viewpoint. As with most situations in life, the more resources one has the better. However this awful virus does not appear to respect a healthy bank balance in a Western society.
But the price on the heads of the future deaths should be ignored at the moment? I think thats being blinkered. I'm reminded of the trolley problem, the only issue is we don't know how many people are on the tracks.

I'm terrified of my loved ones being at risk at the moment, but should I not also be concerned for those same loved ones who will be facing hardship due to lost businesses, housing instability and increased mortality rates in the future?
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