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Old 20.04.2020, 00:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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Great piece in The Atlantic a few days ago regarding China:

https://outline.com/JyMnhc

I found the historical context fascinating and relevant.
Great article indeed. Old news I'm afraid though but a very nice summarization. Thing is, there is so much crap coming from the Chinese and it may gets mentioned in the local news but is widely considered so ridiculous, hence it doesn't get more coverage. Like the "students" caught in the Iowa corn fields, trying to steals GMO crops, so that they can grow the same resistant crop in China. The importation of foreign cattles, because Chinese cattles are too scrawny. . .or the farce about the Confucius Institutes, which are used for nefarious activities. Something else laughable, they only allow 34 foreign films to be officially released in China, all the while you're able to purchase DVDs of unreleased movies from street sellers. The government doesn't crack down on any such activities but rather pads itself on the shoulder for another year of staggering figures. China for instance, claims to be the 3rd largest country, almost the same size as Canada, when in fact they're not even larger than the U.S. How did they self-claim the 3rd place? Well, they chose to disregard lakes and subtracted lakes from the geographical area, just so they can claim 3rd place. It's all a big joke and the West is completely sleeping on it IMO.
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  #7762  
Old 20.04.2020, 00:32
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I know China for sure better than quite some people here.

Some, if not all, of the China bashers here, which most certainly never have been there, seem to have an ugly mixture of racism and "knowledge" by some yellow press media about China, and/or are outright outdated. What might have been true about China in 2010 has either changed or completely gone by 2020, comes on top.

"Lack of living standards", yeah right.. some people are really stuck in the 1980s. Compared with what? With Switzerland? Almost every country in the world then.

Newer Chinese appartments offer decent standard of living, and in the cities, hardly anyone doesn't have proper facilities at home. Chinese in general most certainly don't have a "lack of hygiene", as you name it.

"Lack of social distancing"? Oh, you mean how the Swiss love to enjoy spitting at their faces in local pubs/restaurants while having a drink, till the day the gouvernment finally closed everything down? Seen that in person happening, hours before the lockdown happened. It was a lovely March day, after all..

There are some facts which can't be denied, as in Wuhan's cremation facilities only had slightly more cases than usually per quarter (40k, instead of around 35k which is "normal" for Q1.. if you calculate how many people in a 18million city naturally die per quarter/winter months)

Face it, China did react once they realized how serious the virus was. Building several emergency hospitals, having a strict "stay at home" order in Wuhan and mask-on-what-outside rules in the rest of the country clearly helped to fight the virus when there still was time to restrict it.

Compare it with the gouvernments in Europe and the US, which seemed always two steps behind.

But I guess we don't have any issues here because of our "quality of food", eh?

By now, it should be known to anyone that as long as hospitals can cope with the amount of Corona infected "heavy" cases, death rates will stay fairly low. Which is what happened in China (because they built those!), what happens in South Korea, what Singapore still manages, and what Switzerland managed as well. Or Germany/Austria.

Once your hospitals are overloaded, it soon becomes 5x-10x more deadly as it would be otherwise. Once your system is overloaded, it also affects other patients. This is what happened in Italy, Spain, France, New York, and the UK looks like it more every day.

Of course, if you're a Trump supporter, then it's always "the others" to blame..
Funny how China seemed to need more new hospitals than anywhere else yet have such a low death rate...

Not only are their statistics complete baloney, they aren't even remotely internally coherent. The death rate inside Hubei is tens of times bigger than that outside, the outside death rate is implausibly low, then they pull a (totally round) number out of nowhere and stick it on.

If you seriously believe all of that I can't help you.

Last edited by jorido; 20.04.2020 at 00:43.
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Old 20.04.2020, 00:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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China for instance, claims to be the 3rd largest country, almost the same size as Canada, when in fact they're not even larger than the U.S. How did they self-claim the 3rd place? Well, they chose to disregard lakes and subtracted lakes from the geographical area, just so they can claim 3rd place. It's all a big joke and the West is completely sleeping on it IMO.
Size of a country gets dictated by area and not by "dry ground" if it would be by "dry ground" they even be much bigger than Canada and be 2nd.

What kind of drink are you having atm
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  #7764  
Old 20.04.2020, 00:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Funny how China seemed to need more new hospitals than anywhere else yet have such a low death rate...
"Funny" how you seem to not get the point.

Building hospitals/facilities where people needing extra care / separating them from patients in regular hospitals (which have a weak immune system) will make:

-Corona patients actually getting care, and not leading to Italian problems of "triage", where doctors have to decide who to connect to the machines.

-Weaker patients not catching Corona while in regular hospital care.

It makes perfectly sense. Also, Chinese death rates were higher than those from South Korea or Singapore, because despite the emergency measurements, they couldn't reach the same quality of proper hospitals, which were even better prepared in SK/Singapore. Let's not forget that by January, we had MUCH less knowledge about the virus, how it spread, how lethal it was, which kind of medication might work, etc. etc.

I really don't know why some of you guys take all that hate against China from.

I guess reading certain kind of sources (which are very one-sided) and not interacting with people outside of your "group" will lead towards that. As an open minded person, I'm happily getting enough sources to build my own opinion about it.

And in my opinion, while China certainly did mistakes in the early stages (when hardly anything was known yet), they worked hard on isolating and treating the people, while the countries in Europe+North America looked amused at it, talking about "this couldn't happen here, hahahaha", or similar stupid comments. Like those people who said "See, evil China imprisons their own population", when they announced the quarantine/stay-at-home rules. Yes, you can't make up the stupidity and arrogance displayed.

Let's face it, we had plenty of time to prepare, and completely dodged it. Because, as seeing on this thread, plenty of people still have a "superiority" feeling on themselves over China. I'd even call it racism. "We know how to do it", vs. "those savages don't know anything"..
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  #7765  
Old 20.04.2020, 00:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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I know China for sure better than quite some people here.
No you don't, please stop spewing your nonsense.
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Old 20.04.2020, 00:45
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"Funny" how you seem to not get the point.

Building hospitals/facilities where people needing extra care / separating them from patients in regular hospitals (which have a weak immune system) will make:

-Corona patients actually getting care, and not leading to Italian problems of "triage", where doctors have to decide who to connect to the machines.

-Weaker patients not catching Corona while in regular hospital care.

It makes perfectly sense. Also, Chinese death rates were higher than those from South Korea or Singapore, because despite the emergency measurements, they couldn't reach the same quality of proper hospitals, which were even better prepared in SK/Singapore. Let's not forget that by January, we had MUCH less knowledge about the virus, how it spread, how lethal it was, which kind of medication might work, etc. etc.

I really don't know why some of you guys take all that hate against China from.

I guess reading certain kind of sources (which are very one-sided) and not interacting with people outside of your "group" will lead towards that. As an open minded person, I'm happily getting enough sources to build my own opinion about it.

And in my opinion, while China certainly did mistakes in the early stages (when hardly anything was known yet), they worked hard on isolating and treating the people, while the countries in Europe+North America looked amused at it, talking about "this couldn't happen here, hahahaha", or similar stupid comments.

Let's face it, we had plenty of time to prepare, and completely dodged it. Because, as seeing on this thread, plenty of people still have a "superiority" feeling on themselves over China. I'd even call it racism. "We know how to do it", vs. "those savages don't know anything"..
Funny you call it racism. Last time I checked my family are mixed European Chinese... skepticism about the openness of dictatorships and the bs they pump out is common sense not xenophobia. The Taiwanese are the same ethnicity and nobody is saying the same about them.
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  #7767  
Old 20.04.2020, 00:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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No you don't, please stop spewing your nonsense.
I see. You don't bring any arguments against what I've written or how I explained why their numbers seem accurate to me, just "stop your arguments , they're all wrong, China is pure evil, I've never been there but I watched Fox News and they told me".

Of course I'll comply with your order
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Old 20.04.2020, 00:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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they only allow 34 foreign films to be officially released in China,
This is not true as you say it, they allow for more movies to be released, they only do allow 34 foreign movies each year to be publicly screened. (Think of cinema's and not of a DVD shop)

Before you spit more things as a "fact" you might do some research on them first.
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Old 20.04.2020, 00:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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An R0 of .59 gives a pretty decent decline, it simply means that 41% of every new infection is the end of it and will not infect anyone else. So every cycle of the spread it gets 41% smaller.
But it's a purpose of quarantine to make R0 as small as possible, isn't it?
In fact, the current measures are intended to make it almost impossible for someone to infect anyone who doesn't live in the same household.
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Old 20.04.2020, 00:52
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I see. You don't bring any arguments against what I've written or how I explained why their numbers seem accurate to me, just "stop your arguments , they're all wrong, China is pure evil, I've never been there but I watched Fox News and they told me".

Of course I'll comply with your order
Has the way they treat their population completely passed you by. I'd be interested to know whether you are ethnically Chinese or not and have connections there....

From your various posts I'm guessing you are born and raised there....
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Old 20.04.2020, 00:57
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Let's face it, we had plenty of time to prepare, and completely dodged it. Because, as seeing on this thread, plenty of people still have a "superiority" feeling on themselves over China. I'd even call it racism. "We know how to do it", vs. "those savages don't know anything"..
Not trusting their numbers has nothing to do with being racist or thinking of them as savages. They have a history of bending the numbers, and you have not given one single good point why it would be different this time. You probably also believe only 200 people died on Tian’anmen Square in '89
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  #7772  
Old 20.04.2020, 00:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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Has the way they treat their population completely passed you by. I'd be interested to know whether you are ethnically Chinese or not and have connections there....
I'm still failing to see how they "treated their population" wrongly regarding Corona? In fact, limiting their ability to travel / quarantine rules were about on point and helped to kill the virus within 1.5 months, give or taken.

Are you denying that?

And please, let's not get into a "but China is evil, bad Communists!!!1111" discussion here. Yes, it's not a democracy, everyone knows that.

And what does my race/ethnic play for a role here? Would you think my comments are worth less if I'd be Chinese? Too bad for you, I'm fully Swiss, not even Papierlischwiizer.
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  #7773  
Old 20.04.2020, 01:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Not trusting their numbers has nothing to do with being racist or thinking of them as savages. They have a history of bending the numbers, and you have not given one single good point why it would be different this time. You probably also believe only 200 people died on Tian’anmen Square in '89
No one died in the square but the two (possibly three) unarmed policemen that were burned alive by the protesters.

About 1500 people were killed in the street fights all across Beijing later that day.

Again, the medal always has two sides. I don't trust their numbers, but I can logically calculate that their official numbers on Corona deaths aren't that much off from what logic tells you.

Unless you somehow guess that tenthousands of people can go missing.. but then, some people also believe the "millions of Uyghurs in death camp" nonsense that some Anti-Chinese propagandists made up. Interesting enough without ANY evidence to back their claims up. Even Turkey has stopped claiming such, after understanding it was nothing but made-up lies. And knowing Erdogan, you probably know he'd never run away from a chance to point at others to shift blame away from his terrible domestic politics.

So yes, I believe that the story that China tells us is mostly correct, that they've not held back any important information regarding COVID-19 and that they've fully worked together with the WHO.

While the US, having not paid the WHO since 2018, which didn't accept their test and had people unable to pay for the test during the first two months, failed everywhere. Their pointing at China now shows that. Blame someone else for your own mistakes, must be what you learn at 101 at Trump university

It's a massive difference if you've done literally everything in your power to blame others for your own failures, or if you've done some initial mistakes but owned up to it, and then used whatever possible to make it up. Which is what China did in my opinion.
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  #7774  
Old 20.04.2020, 01:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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I see. You don't bring any arguments against what I've written or how I explained why their numbers seem accurate to me, just "stop your arguments , they're all wrong, China is pure evil, I've never been there but I watched Fox News and they told me".

Of course I'll comply with your order
I don't need to bring any argument. You're too ignorant to comprehend anyways. Just for buildings we have an entire code and standards, that most buildings in China will not be able to pass. Insulation? potable water? fuse boxes? fire safety?
Do not for one iota of a minute assume that the West can't stamp out a hospital within 10 days. . . we sure could do the same. The only difference here, that we have to adhere to rules and regulations, meaning we don't build concrete boxes that crack after 10 years. Nor do we just stamp out entire city blocks without proper location management. Hence the largest mall in the world is in China, unfortunately it is almost empty.
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Old 20.04.2020, 01:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is not true as you say it, they allow for more movies to be released, they only do allow 34 foreign movies each year to be publicly screened. (Think of cinema's and not of a DVD shop)

Before you spit more things as a "fact" you might do some research on them first.
That's what I meant by it. I obviously wouldn't assume the public release of Hangover 4 to take place in Xi Jinping's garden estate.
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Old 20.04.2020, 01:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't need to bring any argument. You're too ignorant to comprehend anyways. Just for buildings we have an entire code and standards, that most buildings in China will not be able to pass. Insulation? potable water? fuse boxes? fire safety?
Do not for one iota of a minute assume that the West can't stamp out a hospital within 10 days. . . we sure could do the same. The only difference here, that we have to adhere to rules and regulations, meaning we don't build concrete boxes that crack after 10 years. Nor do we just stamp out entire city blocks without proper location management. Hence the largest mall in the world is in China, unfortunately it is almost empty.
The mall story is about 15 years old.. matched perfectly my claim that your knowledge about China is heavily outdated.

If you don't understand what a TEMPORARY hospital is like, and that such a thing doesn't need to be built for 50+ years service, then I guess we can stop here. You seem to be on a "China-is-so-evil-Fox-told-me" trip, I'll have you enjoy it and not interrupt you with facts and reality anymore.
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Old 20.04.2020, 01:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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The mall story is about 15 years old.. matched perfectly my claim that your knowledge about China is heavily outdated.
Yes, the mall opened in 2005 and until 2014 it remained empty for the most part. So how do you reckon a vacant building is holding up after almost a decade?
What about the entire ghost cities, that were built for stats or maybe to enrich the fellow political cronies. Were those temporary as well?

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If you don't understand what a TEMPORARY hospital is like, and that such a thing doesn't need to be built for 50+ years service, then I guess we can stop here.
Apart from nothing lasting for 50 years in China; in an organized society, there's the equivalent of FEMA or in Switzerland the Zivilschutz, no need to "build" an entire temporary hospital. But while we're at it, you completely disregarded my building standard point. How very convenient.
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Old 20.04.2020, 01:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, the mall opened in 2005 and until 2014 it remained empty for the most part. So how do you reckon a vacant building is holding up after almost a decade?
What about the entire ghost cities, that were built for stats or maybe to enrich the fellow political cronies. Were those temporary as well?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...is-like-today/

Still trying to show everyone your extremely outdated „knowledge“?

But I guess it’s like talking to a wall.

Your comment regarding temporary successfully built structures just show it. Now it’s just not needed here anymore after I pointed out the difference between temporary and permanently for you..

Guess what. Regular structures in China can also hold for 50+ years just as they do it here.

And while yes, fire safety here is high, and their standards are most probably lower, I guess if I am a corona patient I would prefer getting a hospital bed in a temporary hospital over getting no hospital bed at all, Italy/Spain style..

So NO, we apparently couldn’t build those up...
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Old 20.04.2020, 02:08
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe...is-like-today/

Still trying to show everyone your extremely outdated „knowledge“?

But I guess it’s like talking to a wall.

Your comment regarding temporary successfully built structures just show it. Now it’s just not needed here anymore after I pointed out the difference between temporary and permanently for you..

Guess what. Regular structures in China can also hold for 50+ years just as they do it here.

And while yes, fire safety here is high, and their standards are most probably lower, I guess if I am a corona patient I would prefer getting a hospital bed in a temporary hospital over getting no hospital bed at all, Italy/Spain style..

So NO, we apparently couldn’t build those up...
Fantastic, what about the other dozens of empty ones? What exactly is your point? They built entire cities with the hope that people eventually move in while leaving them to their demise for over a decade. How idiotic must one be? What was the motto, if you build it, they will come?
https://allthatsinteresting.com/chinese-ghost-cities

Italy and Spain style? As I mentioned before, we have standards here that are required in order to build something. These standards do not apply in China, as stated in one of my aforementioned posts.

But go on, believe your party's hot air ideologies about China's peaceful ascent. . .which is nothing more than propaganda anyways, just like their "adjusted" Corona figures.. At least I'm allowed to say what I mean...unlike Dr. Li Wenliang.
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  #7780  
Old 20.04.2020, 06:50
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There was no mention of a quarantine in Switzerland, similar to allowing frontaliers/Grenzgänger not having that. So I´imagine you would have to quarantine when going to your mom but not coming back here.

roegner is correct. it was not required for us to have mandatory quaratining when we arrived last week.however we are self isolating on our own anyway (aside fm going to get essentials)
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