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  #7781  
Old 20.04.2020, 07:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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No one died in the square but the two (possibly three) unarmed policemen that were burned alive by the protesters.

About 1500 people were killed in the street fights all across Beijing later that day.

Again, the medal always has two sides. I don't trust their numbers, but I can logically calculate that their official numbers on Corona deaths aren't that much off from what logic tells you.

Unless you somehow guess that tenthousands of people can go missing.. but then, some people also believe the "millions of Uyghurs in death camp" nonsense that some Anti-Chinese propagandists made up. Interesting enough without ANY evidence to back their claims up. Even Turkey has stopped claiming such, after understanding it was nothing but made-up lies. And knowing Erdogan, you probably know he'd never run away from a chance to point at others to shift blame away from his terrible domestic politics.

So yes, I believe that the story that China tells us is mostly correct, that they've not held back any important information regarding COVID-19 and that they've fully worked together with the WHO.

While the US, having not paid the WHO since 2018, which didn't accept their test and had people unable to pay for the test during the first two months, failed everywhere. Their pointing at China now shows that. Blame someone else for your own mistakes, must be what you learn at 101 at Trump university

It's a massive difference if you've done literally everything in your power to blame others for your own failures, or if you've done some initial mistakes but owned up to it, and then used whatever possible to make it up. Which is what China did in my opinion.
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  #7782  
Old 20.04.2020, 07:42
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Re: Coronavirus

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.....

I think China did hide the epidemic in the beginning and persecuted those people who wanted to tell a different story. They cooperated only after they realised they can't keep denying it. Please, I come from Eastern Europe and I know how communism functions. I didn't really live it because I was a child when the Berlin Wall fell but I know everything. There is no free press there as some people seem to believe. Everything must praise the accomplishments of the Communist Party and its great leader.

As for the measures taken - much earlier and better than in the West. I think people are wrong if they imagine China didn't do anything in their power to stop it.
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  #7783  
Old 20.04.2020, 09:53
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Re: Coronavirus

Mr. Parmelin, your hair is longer than normal ...

Parmelin: Did you notice that?

What an embarrasment he is!

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  #7784  
Old 20.04.2020, 10:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Mr. Parmelin, your hair is longer than normal ...

Parmelin: Did you notice that?

What an embarrasment he is!
Why? You're criticising him for obeying the lockdown?

I don't like his politics but not having a haircut doesn't make him an embarrassment.
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  #7785  
Old 20.04.2020, 10:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why? You're criticising him for obeying the lockdown?

I don't like his politics but not having a haircut doesn't make him an embarrassment.
He's more of a role model than this person: https://beta.20min.ch/story/reiste-s...41?legacy=true
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Old 20.04.2020, 10:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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No one died in the square but the two (possibly three) unarmed policemen that were burned alive by the protesters.

About 1500 people were killed in the street fights all across Beijing later that day.

... but then, some people also believe the "millions of Uyghurs in death camp" nonsense that some Anti-Chinese propagandists made up. Interesting enough without ANY evidence to back their claims up. ...
Well done you for toeing the Party line. Fantastic revisionism. Do you write for the People's daily?
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  #7787  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well done you for toeing the Party line. Fantastic revisionism. Do you write for the People's daily?
Well he's not far wrong on Tian'anmen - none in the square plus 2,000 - 3,000 outside comes from the relatively few independent observers.

Difficult to find unbiased figures on the Uyghurs but Amnesty (who I usually find reliable) estimate about 1 million Uyghurs and Kazakhs so definitely wrong there.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...njiang-crisis/
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  #7788  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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Where to start? There's that word again. First, you're cherrypicking info from the publication - which is about Germany - and applying it to social distancing decisions made in Switzerland. But I'll play along.

It's actually sad to me how funny you think all of this is.
ETH Zurich did similar estimate and conclusion was the same. The spread of the virus was in a decline before we closed everything. I guess the most effective way to stop the spread is hygiene and distance.

Sweden for example didn't jump the gun and they did just as good or just as bad as everybody else. 5, almost 6 weeks with "normal" living in Sweden their corona situation is much better compared to many other countries. People on EF were saying "wait until next week". Nobody seems to be asking that question now? Well we waited so long now that Denmark is reopening with faster pace than expected and Norway is opening kindergartens from today.

All of them are going the way...like Sweden?

There is nothing funny in the wrong approach by many countries, Switzerland isn't alone in this. The real problem that we will get to know in the future is how many more died directly or indirectly of the lock down in comparison to victims from the virus.

1 month ago I was saying the media is making a hype with their news flashes and the way how they report the situation. I was groaned here, but today 1 month later we have Spain revising their corona numbers (to include only those that tested positive, not like before, whoever coughing was added in the list), USA are still adding victim numbers without no test. In the UK already excess death not caused by corona is on the rise

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England and Wales have experienced a record number of deaths in a single week, with 6,000 more than average for this time of year.

Only half of those extra numbers were attributed to the coronavirus. Experts said they were shocked by the rise, particularly in non-Covid-19 deaths, and expressed concern that the lockdown might be having unintended consequences for people’s health.
Can we finally open our eyes and see that the real killer is panic and not the corona virus?
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  #7789  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:37
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Re: Coronavirus

Czech republic is opening admin offices for people today, farmer's markets and other hobby shops (that didn't get opened last week already, like art supplies, rope and leather supplies, metal and woodworking, textiles..yarn, yay). Masks still obligatory till end of june looks like. They are now trying to figure out when to open clothing stores and if the fitting rooms will be closed completely, so no more trying clothes on in the stores.

188 deaths, 6787 infected, over 172000 tests.
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  #7790  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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....but today 1 month later we have Spain revising their corona numbers (to include only those that tested positive, not like before, whoever coughing was added in the list...
Because as you well know, most countries simply haven't tested enough and anyway don't have enough testing to waste on confirming a dead person did indeed have Covid-19 just to keep the stastics updated. A death from Covid-19 remains so whether tested or not. According to the UK's official figures there has been not one death in a care home from Covid. Zero. Are you now going to suggest you believe that?

The flu statistics you have happily quoted earlier in the thread do NOT come from tested cases, they are statistical estimates from death rates. I guess you will not agree we should disregard all those numbers then. BTW, still too early to tell for sure but preliminary looks at death rates are indicating the official count is indeed understated.
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  #7791  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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1 month ago I was saying the media is making a hype with their news flashes and the way how they report the situation. I was groaned here, but today 1 month later we have Spain revising their corona numbers (to include only those that tested positive, not like before, whoever coughing was added in the list), USA are still adding victim numbers without no test. In the UK already excess death not caused by corona is on the rise
The figures reported by Spain show only positive tested patients. Catalonia started adding those only suspected end of last week, but those figures where apparently not the released ones by the official sources, up to a discrepancy of a couple hundred. The over 20,000 deaths reported by now are positive tested (true, some may have had severe underlying conditions), and besides that there are around 3,000 additional deaths in Madrid and about the same in Catalonia in care homes, not tested. Here is impossible to say if they had the virus or died due to lack of care or just because they were old.
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  #7792  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:51
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Re: Coronavirus

May I ask to stop the repetitive groaning please? I think everyone is aware that we do not all agree on the same data.


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  #7793  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well done you for toeing the Party line. Fantastic revisionism. Do you write for the People's daily?
No counter-arguments then. What I thought.. the same old "but.. but.. it can't be" nonsense..

If you don't like free speech (and free thoughts), maybe Breitbart would be a better outlet for you?

Just like your friends, whenever I brought up arguments and facts why they were wrong (like about the ghost cities, empty malls, whatever other 10-15 year old stuff they keep on bringing up) they moved the goalposts.

Instead of accepting the fact that it seems very much like that China did (and does) full cooperate with the WHO regarding the pandemic and isn't holding back anything.

So, either bring facts showing this isn't true, or there can't be a proper discussion. I'm not going to a "Trump told me therefore it must be true" contest with anyone.
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  #7794  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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Because as you well know, most countries simply haven't tested enough and anyway don't have enough testing to waste on confirming a dead person did indeed have Covid-19 just to keep the stastics updated. A death from Covid-19 remains so whether tested or not. According to the UK's official figures there has been not one death in a care home from Covid. Zero. Are you now going to suggest you believe that?

The flu statistics you have happily quoted earlier in the threads do NOT come from tested cases, they are statistical estimates from death rates. I guess you will not agree we should disregard all those numbers then. BTW, still too early to tell for sure but preliminary looks at death rates are indicating the official count is indeed understated.
In many cases (like in Spain) the official count is getting halved. in USA they were adding thousands to the corona victim count just because they might have had corona.

So in any case my opinion is the victim count is not understated, it is largely overstated by adding cases that have died from the measures brought by corona. In many years from now we might find out just how many people died by not having access to adequate health care in this time.
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  #7795  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sweden for example didn't jump the gun and they did just as good or just as bad as everybody else. 5, almost 6 weeks with "normal" living in Sweden their corona situation is much better compared to many other countries. People on EF were saying "wait until next week". Nobody seems to be asking that question now? Well we waited so long now that Denmark is reopening with faster pace than expected and Norway is opening kindergartens from today.

All of them are going the way...like Sweden?
Sweden Foreign Minister Ann Linde, April 17th "It's a myth that life goes on as normal in Sweden" https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artike...rtikel=7454617

The audio interview contains this:

"Many people are staying at home and have stopped traveling. Many companies are collapsing. Unemployment is expected to increase dramatically. There are a large number of new laws and recommendations that affect the entire community. There is no total closure of Sweden, but many parts of Swedish society have closed down. Many Swedes are heavily affected."

But they didn't jump the gun
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  #7796  
Old 20.04.2020, 11:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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In many years from now we might find out just how many people died by not having access to adequate health care in this time.
You mean how many millions don't have any kind of health insurance in the US, and are not getting proper medical care due to that, completely unrelated to Corona?
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Old 20.04.2020, 12:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sweden Foreign Minister Ann Linde, April 17th "It's a myth that life goes on as normal in Sweden" https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artike...rtikel=7454617

The audio interview contains this:

"Many people are staying at home and have stopped traveling. Many companies are collapsing. Unemployment is expected to increase dramatically. There are a large number of new laws and recommendations that affect the entire community. There is no total closure of Sweden, but many parts of Swedish society have closed down. Many Swedes are heavily affected."

But they didn't jump the gun
No gathering more of 50 people in Sweden, like that even happened before

Are restaurants open? Are tourist attractions open? Are schools open? Are parks open?

What exactly is closed in Sweden? The zoo?

Quote:
Swedish children continued to stream through the gates of their schools and kindergartens on Thursday as the Nordic nation stood increasingly alone in Europe in its approach to tackling the coronavirus pandemic.

Shops and restaurants also remained open across the country, with parks and recreational areas packed with groups enjoying the spring sunshine.
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Old 20.04.2020, 12:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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May I ask to stop the repetitive groaning please? I think everyone is aware that we do not all agree on the same data.


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Nothing wrong with groaning a post that can be proven to include false statements I'd say. I would even think that groans are intended to be used on such posts. If not than what should they be used on?
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  #7799  
Old 20.04.2020, 12:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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In many cases (like in Spain) the official count is getting halved.
No it's not. according to your own first link from yesterday (which was the correct one btw) it will INCREASE on Wednesday when they change methodology.

Given that that is The Local, there is a better article in El Pais here.

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Although the number of coronavirus deaths should be the most accurate, the figure does not reflect all fatalities caused by the disease. Those who have died in their homes or in senior residences without being tested for Covid-10 are not included in the official coronavirus death toll. Indeed, there are still no official figures on how many seniors have died in care homes – a number that could be in the thousands.
So actually exactly the same undercounting problem as the UK numbers.
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Old 20.04.2020, 12:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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No it's not. according to your own first link from yesterday (which was the correct one btw) it will INCREASE on Wednesday when they change methodology.

Given that that is The Local, there is a better article in El Pais here.



So actually exactly the same undercounting problem as the UK numbers.
So from all that article, you like to miss the fact that the Spanish are changing their method to include only those that were indeed tested positive yet the big news for you is that they expect the numbers to surge on Wednesday?
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