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  #8301  
Old 26.04.2020, 14:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Putin, of course.

True and who knows what 'The Americans' are up to ?
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  #8302  
Old 26.04.2020, 14:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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True and who knows what 'The Americans' are up to ?
I just got back from a bike ride and now I am baking a couple of chickens. Not sure why that's important though.
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  #8303  
Old 26.04.2020, 14:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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...To my great surprise, no one who attended my Mom's funeral came down with Covid. Odd as I thought those friends outside of family were crazy to attend the funeral...
Has every attendee been tested? Both for active virus and antibodies? It's entirely possible that at least one person there had it at the time or had already been through it. Might be interesting to see the results.

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Diagnosis by pattern recognition is very normal and common practice.
Yes. Last year (Feb 2019) I went to the doctor sick with fever, headache, cough. The doctor took my temp, looked in my throat, and listened to my breathing. He did a quick strep swab, which came back negative. He concluded I had the flu and told me to go home, drink fluids, take paracetamol to reduce fever, and use decongestants to help with the cough. There wasn't an actual "flu" test.

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This report shows how dumb some of these Swiss politicians are...
Contact tracing has been shown to so far help reduce how much the virus spreads because you can warn people to self-isolate. What I don't like about these apps is they give vague information (not that specific is better). Someone riding on the train with you was exposed to Covid-19. Okay, who is it? Where are they sitting? Why are they traveling? I can see it leading to a bunch of paranoia and vigilante justice.

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Pleeeease give me a break. What on earth do you have to hide? This app can save lives. It's hilarious if you think you aren't already "monitorised".
Mostly this. If you use the internet, you're being tracked. Every site you visit, how long you look at a page, etc. Every app on your phone tracks stuff too. The only part I dislike is as mentioned above, an app notifying others around you that you've been exposed. I think we should all assume we're going to be exposed when we leave the house.

Tracking should be limited to specific government eyeballs, who use the info to see patterns of people moving about and how the virus spreads. I don't see any good coming of notifying the average joe that the gal who just walked into Starbucks was exposed.
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Old 26.04.2020, 14:50
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Re: Coronavirus

Until the entire population of the country is tested which will mean every man, women and child - what use
are the much vaunted 'Coronavirus contact Apps' going to be ??

For as far as I see it only those that have been referred to Hospital and all manner of health workers in the
hospitals are likely to be routinely tested; with Care Home Workers followed by Essential workers being
( the current ) last in line for the tests.

Finally when they do get round to testing the entire population - will the tests be voluntary or compulsory ?
As there will no doubt be some thorny 'civil rights issues' to overcome if they make it compulsory.
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  #8305  
Old 26.04.2020, 15:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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Until the entire population of the country is tested which will mean every man, women and child - what use
are the much vaunted 'Coronavirus contact Apps' going to be ??
Backtracking if a new case pops-up would be easier, personally I don't mind the app. And if I really do not want the government to know where I am I can always disable the app for a moment.
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For as far as I see it only those that have been referred to Hospital and all manner of health workers in the
hospitals are likely to be routinely tested; with Care Home Workers followed by Essential workers being
( the current ) last in line for the tests.

Finally when they do get round to testing the entire population - will the tests be voluntary or compulsory ?
As there will no doubt be some thorny 'civil rights issues' to overcome if they make it compulsory.
The test will not be compulsory in my opinion, but what they can do is deny you access to certain things like public transport, hotels, cinema's etc.. If one refuses to take a test.
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  #8306  
Old 26.04.2020, 15:20
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Re: Coronavirus

The apps will be useful only when people are put on periodic testing schedule, I think. We are in the situation when not even all symptomatic people get tested. The info that one round of testing provides expires too fast.
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Huh. So did I understand that right - 4 out of 7 were "diangosed" by their doctors as having the virus despite not being tested for it? Meaning it was not a diagnosis, but a guess given the symptoms are in non-severe cases not distinguishable from flu and cold?
I had written a fuller post but edited it before posting because it was lengthy, but as you have doubts...and in chronological order...and bearing in mind that testing was ok initially, but declined rapidly when the government guidelines changed. This is currently being rectified with new 'ramped up' testing being rolled out.

Friend's 18yr old daughter - Dry cough 17 March. Fever began 18 March. Was sent to hospital to be tested and was found positive. She was in bed until 23 March and ill for 3 weeks in total.

Brother-in-law - taken ill on 20 March, 5 days after returning from Oporto. Doctor visited on 1st day of his fever and said he displayed all the 'classic' symptoms. Doctor followed up with twice daily phone calls plus daily phone calls with future daughter-in-law who is a doctor in London dealing with phone diagnosis and monitoring of patients, and referals to hospital. Fever for 4 days and in bed for 6. Doctor had given him a further 24hrs or spike in symptoms before needing transfer to hospital. Fully recovered now but still tires relatively easily for him. Daily walk down to 2-3 k rather than his usual 5k. No testing available at the time.

Sister-in-law - had mild symptoms after nursing her husband. No testing available at the time. They both came out of advised self-isolation on 17 April

Brother's 8yr old grandson - Visited at home by family doctor early April. Given a finger oxygen monitor device. Doctor phoned every 8hrs for 3 days to record oxygen levels and temperature. Fever broke a couple of hours before the time when doctor had said he would have to be hospitalised if there was no improvement. No testing available.

Friend - 3rd yr student midwife. Advised to self isolate by hospital based training manager after developing symptoms in the last week of March. Self isolated from partner and their 3 kids for 2 weeks and was in bed for 6 days with a fever. She's been away from work for 4 weeks. Manager has booked test appointment for her for this week via government scheme launched on Thursday. Up until developing symptoms, she'd been working and training at a hospital with a dedicated covid ward that had seen a number of fatalities when she became ill.

I think you can see from that, only one person had mild symptoms. There's been a significant gap in the availability of testing between the early days (mid Feb - mid March) and what is currently being rolled out. The flaw with the limited testing which was available is that it was at out of town, drive through facilities, so by it's nature, it excluded people who experienced were too ill to drive, didn't have cars or were to far away. One nursing home which desperately wanted their staff and residents to be tested said the closest testing was a 5hr round trip away.
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Backtracking if a new case pops-up would be easier, personally I don't mind the app. And if I really do not want the government to know where I am I can always disable the app for a moment.

The test will not be compulsory in my opinion, but what they can do is deny you access to certain things like public transport, hotels, cinema's etc.. If one refuses to take a test.
Will you be allowed to public transport, hotels, cinema, etc...if you disable your app, though?
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Will you be allowed to public transport, hotels, cinema, etc...if you disable your app, though?
Hopefully not.
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  #8310  
Old 26.04.2020, 15:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tracking should be limited to specific government eyeballs, who use the info to see patterns of people moving about and how the virus spreads. I don't see any good coming of notifying the average joe that the gal who just walked into Starbucks was exposed.
I don't think the app is meant to work that way. As I understand it, it will track which other phones have been close to yours (it does not track people, but their phones) during the last say 14 days. I pressume that it should only store those contacts lasting more than X minutes, maybe the 15 minutes often referred to as exposure time. Once someone gives his app the information that they have tested positive, if that phone is in your database of possible contacts you are notified that you have been exposed and maybe when it happened, but you should not know the identity of your possible contact.
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  #8311  
Old 26.04.2020, 15:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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Everywhere seems to have different information, does anyone know if an infected throat is part of the virus?
According to BAG, yes...

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...tml#1145977831

According to WHO, yes...

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-de...:text=symptoms

According the NHS England, no...

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/corona...irus-symptoms/

I self-isolated for 6 days after developing swollen throat glands and a scratchy throat. Realised on 2nd day that there was a film of pollen on our balcony, so began taking my antihistamines a month early as some hayfever symptoms can be mistaken for covid-19.
Please scroll down to Section 9 of this for the symptom checker comparison - https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-...stions-answers
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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Hopefully not.
I think tracking should be done via GPs. Not gov that could pass the info to 3rd parties. Insurance companies, whatever employers..GPs have already the legislature to not pass medical data to 3rd parties. If your doc says that here is your test result, you should stay home and isolate for 2 wks, people will do it knowing that they can be watched through cells and GPS. But an app telling me thay my neighbor got positive yesterday at 3pm is a big no-no to medical info security.

I know that they are testing some fitbit like bracelettes in Belgium, taking O2 levels, cardiac rhythm and temp. That's not bad at all, puts responsibility on the wearer and possible info for his GP who would know his patient and how to read his specks, too.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 26.04.2020 at 16:41.
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't think the app is meant to work that way. As I understand it, it will track which other phones have been close to yours (it does not track people, but their phones) during the last say 14 days...
Phones are carried by people. One app I saw demonstrated on TV would alert you if someone (ok a phone) that had been exposed was coming into your vicinity, or let's say you were walking into a public square it would inform you if there were exposed people phones in the square.

Sometimes I take the train at odd times and there aren't many people phones riding. Let's say at station X only one person phone gets on. My phone then pings me to notify me there's a phone near me that has been exposed. Clearly, that phone is attached to that person who just got on the train.
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:55
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Re: Coronavirus

The Swiss won't go for it. It's not going to work.
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:56
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Re: Coronavirus

I made the difference between people and phones because sometimes I may leave my phone on my desk and not take it with me every time I go to a meeting or to talk to a colleague. If you work in a big office or it is not unusual to have a phone ring or vibrate while the owner is not there. Or if I have to go to the supermarket to get a couple of things I may not take the phone with me, especially in summer if I am wearing shorts.

I also doubt of the usefulness of an app telling you that someone is infected 20 m away from you
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Old 26.04.2020, 15:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think tracking should be done via GPs. Not gov that could pass the info to 3rd parties. Insurance companies, whatever employers..GPs have already the legislature to not pass medical data to 3rd parties. If your doc says that here is your test result, you should stay home and isolate for 2 wks, people will do it knowing that they can be watched through cells and GPS. But an app telling me thay my neighbor got positive yesterday at 3pm is a big no-no to medical info security.

I know that thty are testing some fitbit like bracelettes in Belgium, taking O2 levels, cardiac rhythm and temp. That's not bad at all, puts responsibility on the wearer and possible to his GP who would not him, too.
If privacy is an issue I'd say let's not get your GP involved in your personal whereabouts.
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Old 26.04.2020, 16:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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Let's say at station X only one person phone gets on. My phone then pings me to notify me there's a phone near me that has been exposed. Clearly, that phone is attached to that person who just got on the train.
Do you not think that could cause panic?

I've not been taking my phone out since the last time I disinfected it and nearly killed it.
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Old 26.04.2020, 16:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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Do you not think that could cause panic?

I've not been taking my phone out since the last time I disinfected it and nearly killed it.
If you want space in the tram just have your phone give notifications and a lot of people might get of on the next stop.
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Old 26.04.2020, 16:16
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Re: Coronavirus

Futhermore, I understood the goal is mainly to be able to backtrack contacts you may have had a few days ago with people who have later on tested positive, rather than warn everybody around about people breaking their isolation. Which could be a second use, but not the first one.
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Old 26.04.2020, 16:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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Do you not think that could cause panic?

I've not been taking my phone out since the last time I disinfected it and nearly killed it.
Exactly, that was my point above with vigilante justice, etc. I do not think letting everyday numpties know that "someone nearby" has been exposed is a good idea. Yet there are apps already in development that do just that.
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