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  #8501  
Old 29.04.2020, 08:03
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Re: Coronavirus

Just read that New Scientist link which says Cov-19 may or may not follow the normal viral load patterns...........
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  #8502  
Old 29.04.2020, 09:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm quite risk averse with dangerous materials - I've seen numerous people being exposed to organic chemicals getting leukaemia despite wearing pph.
Thatís quite an interesting statement. How many is numerous? Over what time period?
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  #8503  
Old 29.04.2020, 09:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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But that's my point. If you are in a profession that doesn't, reasonably, let you work from home long term or effectively social distance, it's outside the realm of personal responsibility. It's ok for the folk wanting to end lockdown if they can can take this "personal responsibility " and essentially do as they wish. Where does it leave others? Those millions who cannot do their jobs and maintain social distance.
This is why it's a trade-off, it will never be possible to protect everyone all of the time. That a few are in "danger" (remember there is a greater than 99% chance of survival for those under 60), is preferable to everyone suffering harm as a result of the lockdown.
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  #8504  
Old 29.04.2020, 10:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Random antibody testing in New York City indicates that some 25% of the population there have been infected with the coronavirus. That's a high percentage, but still way short of the numbers required for herd immunity (around 70%), if indeed immunity is possible (and the WHO currently warns that that's not guaranteed at all).

NYC has seen 292,000 confirmed cases of COVID-19. If all SARS-CoV-2 infections were classified as COVID-19 cases (which would technically be correct), that number understates the real number of cases by a factor of almost 10 (extrapolating the random test results, there would be more than 2 million infections in NYC alone; double the current confirmed total for the entire USA).
Cuomo's claim is nonsensical.

The tested people were selected pseudo-randomly. They asked grocery and big-store shoppers for a sip of their blood, obviously that procedure is quite selective and the results can't be extrapolated to the entire population without adjusting for that selectiveness. Which may be impossible unless they have the individual's data.
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Old 29.04.2020, 10:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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Cuomo's claim is nonsensical.

The tested people were selected pseudo-randomly. They asked grocery and big-store shoppers for a sip of their blood, obviously that procedure is quite selective and the results can't be extrapolated to the entire population without adjusting for that selectiveness. Which may be impossible unless they have the individual's data.
I would also like to know how they tested for antibodies. Proper testing takes ages which is why studies are so slow in coming out. And AFAIK every commercially available kit so far available is flawed and very likely to produce false positives.

Edit - yes, they are using commercial kit from a company called Lenco. Not verified by the FDA. I honestly would not be surprised to find a false positive as high as 50%.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/04...s-in-new-york/
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  #8506  
Old 29.04.2020, 12:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Again, what if you are someone who cannot avoid? It would then be the responsible thing to help minimise potential infection for those people as well as yourself.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1588100448832
From your link, "incidentally" also what Koch is saying since forever:
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If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19.
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  #8507  
Old 29.04.2020, 12:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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YMy home made mask is made from a vacuum cleaner bag which is one of those relatively fine pore ones designed to minimise allergies and this should stop all but the smallest water droplets. Four masks from one bag.
I knew I shouldn't have bought that cyclone bag-free vacuum cleaner
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Old 29.04.2020, 12:34
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Re: Coronavirus

"If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19"

This makes no sense to me.
You need to have had a reliable recent test to know one is not carrier - feeling healthy is not enough, so wearing a mask may protects others.
In a crowded space, a mask will offer some protection from carriers.

Of course carers and medical staff should have priority over masks -I assume that was what his original comment was supposed to convey.

Encouraging people to make and wear their own can only be positive?
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Old 29.04.2020, 12:35
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Re: Coronavirus

Another twist on masks is that the more fancy ones, e.g. 3M FFP3, may have an exhalation valve, therefore they only help to protect the wearer but not the others.
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  #8510  
Old 29.04.2020, 12:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Encouraging people to make and wear their own can only be positive?
Reasoning I heard is that with a mask you might drop your guard, no longer keep distance nor follow other hygiene measures. It is properly the same people which do not buckle-up or wear a helmet because they are such good a driver/rider and claim seat belts, helmets will only encourage speeding and reckless driving.

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 29.04.2020 at 13:39.
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  #8511  
Old 29.04.2020, 13:11
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This is why it's a trade-off, it will never be possible to protect everyone all of the time. That a few are in "danger" (remember there is a greater than 99% chance of survival for those under 60), is preferable to everyone suffering harm as a result of the lockdown.
Yes but you are presumably not one of the folk being traded off. Or have I misunderstood. It's other folk. And where did you get that 99% from? That is no fact I've seen.

How would you feel if you or your close family members were the ones being traded off. The ones who could not, realistically, be protected. Would you still think the same if you were part of that trade off?

I find your "transactional" approach to be remarkably cold.

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You don't understand properly.
The infectious dose is the dose required to infect an individual. This will vary hugely from person to person and is probably the reason for the immediate differences in the age susceptibility with Cov-19.
The viral load normally refers to how much virus your body is exposed to or how much body is circulating in your body.
For those for whom the infectious dose is higher; their viral load (circulating virus) is likely to be lower given a certain amount of exposure.
With regard to the masks: They vary in their pore sizes and how tightly they are bound to the face -the catch is that the tighter they bind, the more uncomfortable they are to wear and the pores clog up with moisture faster.
The virus is transmitted in water droplets. My home made mask is made from a vacuum cleaner bag which is one of those relatively fine pore ones designed to minimise allergies and this should stop all but the smallest water droplets. Four masks from one bag.
Thanks. I thought my reading comprehension had failed me. It's the infectious dose that the masks can help with.

Last edited by MusicChick; 29.04.2020 at 13:15. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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  #8512  
Old 29.04.2020, 13:36
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Re: Coronavirus

"Victoria
The number of fines issued by Victoria Police in the 24 hours leading up until 8am on Monday was 108.

That number reached 307 by the afternoon.

Since March 21, officers have conducted a total of 14,275 spot checks at homes, businesses and non-essential services.

There were 983 checks performed on Sunday alone.

A police spokesperson said they were unable to provide any background or breakdowns of data due to the high number of fines and spot checks.

As for the L-plater who copped a hefty fine for being on the road in Melbourne’s south-east with her mother, Victoria Police confirmed with The New Daily that Assistant Commissioner Bob Hill will review the matter to find out “whether discretion could have been used in this instance”.

For those asking – yes – we’ve seen a copy of the actual infringement notice handed yesterday to a 17yo L Plater having a training drive with mum in the rain yesterday. pic.twitter.com/VjZTkNJVni

— Heidi Murphy (@heidimur) April 6, 2020

From Thursday, 200 public service officers will be spread across Melbourne CBD, as well as commercial hubs and suburban areas across greater Melbourne and the regions, including Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo.

They will also continue to patrol the 83 train stations across Victoria, despite lower passenger numbers."

Shit. That could be approaching fascism!!But then again Victoria is still a police state! They even come into your home!!!!

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  #8513  
Old 29.04.2020, 13:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Thanks Samaire.
... I agree that the seemingly random embargo on some items is strange...
Well the "ideal" lock-down would disallow people leave home at all. But people need to eat, so it was decided to allow shopping for food and medicines. The logic behind blocking non-essential items in supermarkets was to prevent people going shopping when they only needed such items and no food or medicine. Also, to be fair to all closed down non-food stores. But yeah, deeming what's essential and what's not is a messy job I guess...

(Edit: oops, porsch1909, EdwinNL and others already answered that. I've been away from the forum for a couple of days so started reading where I left off)

Last edited by jimk; 29.04.2020 at 14:04.
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  #8514  
Old 29.04.2020, 14:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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You don't understand properly.
The infectious dose is the dose required to infect an individual. This will vary hugely from person to person and is probably the reason for the immediate differences in the age susceptibility with Cov-19.
Since one virus getting through your physical and body defences is sufficient to cause infection (https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0313150254.htm) I guess the infectious dose must mean the dose that will cause infection x% of the time.

I.e. Infective dose, such as ID50.
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Old 29.04.2020, 14:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am not talking about going back to life as normal, just reopening the country whilst taking precautions. Use of masks, social distancing, vulnerable continuing to self isolate, avoiding public transport, those that can work from home should continue to do so, avoiding large gatherings etc. A lot of this will happen eventually anyway, but it should have started already. Of course it will never be possible to protect everyone all of the time, but this is where personal responsibility comes into play.
Any ramp up alternative suggestions to this?
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Old 29.04.2020, 14:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well the "ideal" lock-down would disallow people leave home at all. But people need to eat, so it was decided to allow shopping for food and medicines. The logic behind blocking non-essential items in supermarkets was to prevent people going shopping when they only needed such items and no food or medicine. Also, to be fair to all closed down non-food stores. But yeah, deeming what's essential and what's not is a messy job I guess...

(Edit: oops, porsch1909, EdwinNL and others already answered that. I've been away from the forum for a couple of days so started reading where I left off)
Don't worry. It's worth repeating as it seems to be a concept that a few people on the forum have trouble understanding.
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Old 29.04.2020, 14:55
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Re: Coronavirus

Robber with protective mask raids bank in Langnau.
A stranger raided a bank branch in Langnau am Albis on Wednesday morning and stole several hundred thousand francs of cash.

Well at least he cared about not infecting anyone!
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Old 29.04.2020, 14:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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Robber with protective mask raids bank in Langnau.
A stranger raided a bank branch in Langnau am Albis on Wednesday morning and stole several hundred thousand francs of cash.

Well at least he cared about not infecting anyone!
Jokes on him, everybody is using contactless to avoid filthy cash.
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  #8519  
Old 29.04.2020, 15:02
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Re: Coronavirus

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"If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19"

This makes no sense to me.
You need to have had a reliable recent test to know one is not carrier - feeling healthy is not enough, so wearing a mask may protects others.
In a crowded space, a mask will offer some protection from carriers.
Being infected doesn't matter, being infectuous does, and those people are to stay home and self-isolate/quarantine to begin with. It is still unclear whether people are infectuous before the symptoms show, same for the asymptomatic cases.
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Of course carers and medical staff should have priority over masks -I assume that was what his original comment was supposed to convey.
What's your evidence? Do you think that's also why the WHO's recommends the same?
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Encouraging people to make and wear their own can only be positive?
Depends on how they react and where they're worn. I can see their usefulness in public transport, it's often impossible to keep the distance, but beyond that it's probably more a case of being tired of the other measures. That's why I'm pretty sure social distancing will be neglected, first towards others with masks but pretty soon against everybody.

You may want to make sure the vacuum cleaner bag you made your masks from doesn't contain any bactericides, fungicides, or other poisons.
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Old 29.04.2020, 15:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well the "ideal" lock-down would disallow people leave home at all. But people need to eat, so it was decided to allow shopping for food and medicines. The logic behind blocking non-essential items in supermarkets was to prevent people going shopping when they only needed such items and no food or medicine. Also, to be fair to all closed down non-food stores. But yeah, deeming what's essential and what's not is a messy job I guess...

(Edit: oops, porsch1909, EdwinNL and others already answered that. I've been away from the forum for a couple of days so started reading where I left off)

I don't know why you're telling me. Well aware thanks.
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