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Old 17.05.2020, 21:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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I have a problem here. I did not notice you, pre-corona, being concerned about the number of humans that starve to death or die from TB and malaria every year. Why do you mention them now?
I had previously mentioned a charity I support that transformed lives through education in the UK, Africa & India. Before marriage 100% of my estate was going to this charity, specifying that all the money must be used in Africa & India as the no of people helped is many times that in the UK. I am far more concerned with 3rd world poverty than UK poverty, the definition of poverty has changed in my lifetime, I like the definition I grew up with. Teach people to fish rather than give them fish every day for the rest of their lives.

Well more people will die from lockdown than Covid, more than from the Holocaust, quite an eye opener that you need to ask me this!

Last edited by 3Wishes; 18.05.2020 at 16:38. Reason: no need to bring up old grievances and stir the pot ;)
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Old 17.05.2020, 21:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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In the US ca. 48 States have now announced plans to reopen despite the curve being flat, indeed the last few days rising again. Take Texas as an example, one of the first to reopen. I hope they know what they are doing, see graph below.
Compare with the White House guideline "Downward trajectory of influenza-like illnesses (ILI) reported within a 14-day period AND Downward trajectory of covid-like syndromic cases reported within a 14-day period"
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Texas reported 1,801 new coronavirus cases Saturday, reportedly marking the state’s largest single-day jump in cases since the start of the coronavirus crisis.

The state department of health said 734 of the new cases are from targeted testing of employees at meat plants in Potter and Randall counties.
Source

Meat eaters are recommended to use extra long knives and forks
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  #9643  
Old 17.05.2020, 21:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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An interesting article from the Jewish Journal, "The Worldwide Lockdown May Be the Greatest Mistake in History." An additional 130 Million will face starvation as a result. As Quartz India reported on April 22, “Coronavirus has killed only around 700 Indians … a small number still compared to the 450,000 TB (tuberculosis) and 10,000-odd malaria deaths recorded every year. https://jewishjournal.com/commentary...WCd-lHhWm6cfZo
450.000 TB deaths puts it at 0.033% of the population over the whole year, Switzerland now is at 0.022% of the population dead on Corona, In Belgium even 0.079% and that is done in 3,5months counting from the 1st death

40% of the people in India has TB (latent and active) and treatment is much longer than with Corona (Active TB 6 to 9 months), and many infections are not even caused by human to human transmission. And there is also XDR-TB which is drug-resistant.

So to make his point he is comparing to a less deadly disease which is not a problem in many countries and for which lock-down is not a cure...

Yeah great article

Oh and I said it a few times already in this topic, every country should see for itself what works best them, for Switzerland a lock-down works just fine since we have the money and nobody has to starve due to lack of food or medical treatment. Other countries should make their own math but they'll risk being banned from international travel if they remain a hotspot.
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Old 17.05.2020, 21:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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Teach people to fish rather than give them fish every day for the rest of their lives.
If they die of TB or Covid before they learn how to fish....it's a wonderful principle which is good when you have your belly full and are healthy.

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There is a lot of anti-Bill Gates stuff on social media by the tinfoil hat brigade; I block them now.
Can you block the social media? I think it would be more effective....
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Old 17.05.2020, 22:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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If they die of TB or Covid before they learn how to fish....it's a wonderful principle which is good when you have your belly full and are healthy.
Whilst plenty of Kids die of TB very very few do of COVID-19.

If a medically informed response to a pandemic creates economic hardship so serious that the economic events are more serious than the virus the economic system HAS to be changed, not the response to the disease. Condemning some to die of a curable illness so that others don’t die of engineered poverty is unacceptable. We can do much better than this!
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  #9646  
Old 17.05.2020, 22:11
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Re: Coronavirus

Anti-vaxers are nuts, true, but actually it's possible that vaxing could be harmful at least to a tiny percentage of the population. I've known a tween girl few years ago who got vaxed against tick born encephalitis and shortly after developed very severe OCD and other weird symptoms which persisted for several months (Zurich Kinderspital did nothing more after brain MRI and spinal tap results came back fine, washed their hands off her). Then parents organized an IgG allergy test (sent to a lab in US) and based on the results removed eggs from her diet. All symptoms went away within 2 weeks and never came back! Considering vax is made on egg whites base... The parents did a lot of research and apparently there've been quite a few cases like this worldwide, coming right after vaxing. But who knows, maybe coincidence of course, there hasn't been much research on this yet.

Actually when I looked things up a bit I was amazed how little is known to current science regarding the immune system and how immensely complex it is. Apparently, no one still has a clue how it actually works and all the scientists can currently do is "poke here, poke there" and see what kind of reaction they get. Sounds like a wide open field for doing some interesting research work...
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Old 17.05.2020, 22:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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450.000 TB deaths puts it at 0.033% of the population over the whole year, Switzerland now is at 0.022% of the population dead on Corona, In Belgium even 0.079% and that is done in 3,5months counting from the 1st death

40% of the people in India has TB (latent and active) and treatment is much longer than with Corona (Active TB 6 to 9 months), and many infections are not even caused by human to human transmission. And there is also XDR-TB which is drug-resistant.

So to make his point he is comparing to a less deadly disease which is not a problem in many countries and for which lock-down is not a cure...

Yeah great article
Not to mention that in a country with such a high incidence and prevalence of TB, medical authorities would make everything in their power so that covid-19 doesn't spread in the risk groups, among which TB sufferers surely belong.

But seriously, even a smart kid can debunk some of the theories we've heard these days.

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Oh and I said it a few times already in this topic, every country should see for itself what works best them, for Switzerland a lock-down works just fine since we have the money and nobody has to starve due to lack of food or medical treatment. Other countries should make their own math but they'll risk being banned from international travel if they remain a hotspot.
Totally agree.
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Old 17.05.2020, 23:56
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Re: Coronavirus

https://lenews.ch/2020/05/11/recent-...d-coronavirus/

Apparently the antibody infection rate in Geneva is around 10%. That'd suggest that London is probably more like 20% and New York maybe higher still.

Rural areas probably coming in at single digits.
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Old 18.05.2020, 01:29
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Re: Coronavirus

Wow. Didn't know India had so many TB cases.

As for the "I won't allow Bill Gates to chip me" argument:

You can be very sure that when all is done and dusted about COVID19, governments around the world will think about how to better document vaccinations, infections and immunity in their population - and that international travel will require more proof about the measures you've taken against various infectious diseases.

I wouldn't say subcutaneous RFID chips are completely out of the question, yet - but they would require a central database, and that's a can of worms I don't see anybody wanting to open - yet. Outside of China, of course.

My guess is that once we get a 2nd wave in Winter, a lot of the things we consider to be unthinkable even now will suddenly become inevitable.
Just like if you had asked somebody about locking down the world as we witnessed in April six months ago, (s)he would not have been able to imagine the world we are currently living in.

Personally, I hope I can somehow draw out getting the vaccine until they've tested it on a couple of millions of people of my ethnicity and have seen the long-term effects (or the lack of them, hopefully).

My parents, if they make it there, certainly won't have that luxury.

So, my prediction: the global, central, digital vaccination pass will come.
What form exactly it will take is anyones guess. But given the speed at which we had to cross items off the "No way is this gonna happen, ever"-list recently, are you going to bet money that it won't happen?
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Old 18.05.2020, 07:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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I had previously mentioned a charity I support that transformed lives through education in the UK, Africa & India. Before marriage 100% of my estate was going to this charity, specifying that all the money must be used in Africa & India as the no of people helped is many times that in the UK. I am far more concerned with 3rd world poverty than UK poverty, the definition of poverty has changed in my lifetime, I like the definition I grew up with. Teach people to fish rather than give them fish every day for the rest of their lives.

Well more people will die from lockdown than Covid, more than from the Holocaust, quite an eye opener that you need to ask me this!
You a are using the classic straw man argument.

Poverty, TB etc are of course much bigger issues, but less so in the western world.
The lock-downs big negative effects are also going to be felt outside of our bubble. This is the way of an unfair world. The USA and Britain are failing the stress test presented by corona. This is unforgivable as they had a choice. Many other countries will not have that choice.
Addressing poverty means tackling corruption, increasing transparency, valuing labour higher and changing how the money-markets work.
Bad politics kills more people than modern day pandemics.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 18.05.2020 at 16:40. Reason: removing personal comment from the quote
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Old 18.05.2020, 08:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, that's true, not properly so. Some people are not affected at all. That's the best case.
But one can get to feel rather ill for a little while.

In one case I know, the hospital decreed it to be the day for a particular ward's staff to get their flu shots, and so they did.

The next day several of them were ill.
The day after that, so many of them were too ill to get out of bed and come to work that they had to close an entire ward, and have all the patients moved.
Well I'm talking about people dying . Not just getting a little sick. And it's the elderly that are mostly hit. I have seen it happen. They get the flu shot and one day later start getting sick ( flu like symtoms ). In 10 days they are dead from a lung infection.

If one has a strong immune system ( cultivated by a healthy life style ) one does not need all this shit that the pharma companies ( and politicians ) want to pump into you to get their milliarden.
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Old 18.05.2020, 09:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well I'm talking about people dying . Not just getting a little sick. And it's the elderly that are mostly hit. I have seen it happen. They get the flu shot and one day later start getting sick ( flu like symtoms ). In 10 days they are dead from a lung infection.

If one has a strong immune system ( cultivated by a healthy life style ) one does not need all this shit that the pharma companies ( and politicians ) want to pump into you to get their milliarden.
Perhaps you should look at the real economics of vaccinations. The fact is they are not particularly profitable for the manufacturers. Sure they make a profit. But the money they can make from treatments rather than prevention is far higher.
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Old 18.05.2020, 09:21
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Re: Coronavirus

Sars-CoV-2 is rampant in Dutch mink farms. Shame on the Dutch ( and the EU ) for still allowing this barbarism!

https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/pelztie...9-670407346065
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Old 18.05.2020, 09:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Anti-vaxers are nuts, true, but actually it's possible that vaxing could be harmful at least to a tiny percentage of the population.
Yeah. I think we all know that. No intervention is without risk. Intervention should only happen when the risk from not intervening is higher. Which is why vaccines are promoted by health organisations and governments. They save far more lives than they harm.

It is an anti-vaxxer technique to stare wide-eyed at people's left ears while earnestly telling them that "well, vaccines aren't safe, they do harm people!!!".

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Apparently, no one still has a clue how it actually works and all the scientists can currently do is "poke here, poke there" and see what kind of reaction they get. Sounds like a wide open field for doing some interesting research work...
They have an enormous idea of what is going on. But what they don't know is still quite vast as well. Try reading "The Beautiful Cure" by Daniel Davis. It explains the current (well, 2017) state of play in immunology in an accessibly way.
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Old 18.05.2020, 10:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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You a are using the classic straw man argument.

Poverty, TB etc are of course much bigger issues, but less so in the western world.
The lock-downs big negative effects are also going to be felt outside of our bubble. This is the way of an unfair world. The USA and Britain are failing the stress test presented by corona. This is unforgivable as they had a choice. Many other countries will not have that choice.
Addressing poverty means tackling corruption, increasing transparency, valuing labour higher and changing how the money-markets work.
Bad politics kills more people than modern day pandemics.
I agree with you in principle, but all of these, you know - fighting corruption, transparency....great words in theory but so many double standards in practice. When the corrupted are always only among the locals and not the foreign companies who come there and do pretty much whatever they like, and the population doesn't see any trial or law suit against foreign companies, these words lose their meaning very soon.

Double standards, trust me - they kill great ideas and concepts too.

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I had previously mentioned a charity I support that transformed lives through education in the UK, Africa & India. Before marriage 100% of my estate was going to this charity, specifying that all the money must be used in Africa & India as the no of people helped is many times that in the UK. I am far more concerned with 3rd world poverty than UK poverty, the definition of poverty has changed in my lifetime, I like the definition I grew up with. Teach people to fish rather than give them fish every day for the rest of their lives.

Well more people will die from lockdown than Covid, more than from the Holocaust, quite an eye opener that you need to ask me this!

I would have thanked you for this post but didn't like a particular reference here, which is neither here nor there and it doesn't add anything to your point.

Normally I would have also said something along the line of "Charity starts from home." Let me assure you, FMF, that poverty sucks wherever you can find it. Being UK or third world countries. It sucks in my second world country too. Of course we can always find something even worse or scarier in this world (this isn't a competition because nobody wins), but please, never underestimate how much stigma and trauma are attached to poverty. I find it very peculiar the way some people regard it - trying to "ethnicise" it, that is so wrong on so many levels. Because a lot of people who also need desperate help are unheard and unspoken of.

But, honestly, congrats for your actions. I have a friend who was always criticised she's supporting dogs rescue shelters and NGO's, as if we humans didn't have enough problems already. I told her that some people will always criticise no matter what, and if she feels this is making our world better - to follow her heart.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 18.05.2020 at 16:41. Reason: removed personal comment from quoted text
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Old 18.05.2020, 10:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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Oh and I said it a few times already in this topic, every country should see for itself what works best them, for Switzerland a lock-down works just fine since we have the money and nobody has to starve due to lack of food or medical treatment.
You sure about that? Geneva would beg to differ, given a fair number of people have been lining up to get food.

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/bedu...e-doppelt-hart



FMF certainly is right, globally, more people will die from hunger as a consequence of economic hardship than they will of corona. Actually more people already die of hunger every day even without corona (it's around 30k+/day during the best of days). Some of us have been saying that all along. Locking down India and Africa with their massive informal sectors - yeah, good call...
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Old 18.05.2020, 11:02
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Re: Coronavirus

A Swiss study from the ETH in Zürich has suggested that the Coronavirus was already getting under control before Switzerland went into lockdown!! The study suggests that social distancing measures and behavioral changes from awareness of the virus played more of a role in reducing infection rates than the lockdown itself.

What the study also indicates is that school closures had minimal effect on reducing the rate of infection.

https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schwe...eben-137881160
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Old 18.05.2020, 11:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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A Swiss study from the ETH in Zürich has suggested that the Coronavirus was already getting under control before Switzerland went into lockdown!! The study suggests that social distancing measures and behavioral changes from awareness of the virus played more of a role in reducing infection rates than the lockdown itself.

What the study also indicates is that school closures had minimal effect on reducing the rate of infection.

https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schwe...eben-137881160
Maybe you can post the article here or give a more detailed summary, you might have realised it is behind a paywall.

Otherwise I can safely assume you cherry picked whatever was self-serving.

It is one study, anyway. We don't know which department, which team, we don't know much. I wish it made a good point, but I very much doubt it.
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Old 18.05.2020, 11:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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A Swiss study from the ETH in Zürich has suggested that the Coronavirus was already getting under control before Switzerland went into lockdown!! The study suggests that social distancing measures and behavioral changes from awareness of the virus played more of a role in reducing infection rates than the lockdown itself.

What the study also indicates is that school closures had minimal effect on reducing the rate of infection.

https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schwe...eben-137881160
I posted about this maybe a month ago. The did the same study in Germany and had the same result! In both cases lock down gave 0 result on the overall spread

But some people had their heads too deep in the lock down to actually hear/read it!
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Old 18.05.2020, 11:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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Whilst plenty of Kids die of TB very very few do of COVID-19.

If a medically informed response to a pandemic creates economic hardship so serious that the economic events are more serious than the virus the economic system HAS to be changed, not the response to the disease. Condemning some to die of a curable illness so that others don’t die of engineered poverty is unacceptable. We can do much better than this!
Btw, are you sure some covid-19 deaths aren't counted as TB deaths? Lots of countries have a non-transparent/different way of registering fatalities. We talked about Russia for instance somewhere in this thread.

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I posted about this maybe a month ago. The did the same study in Germany and had the same result! In both cases lock down gave 0 result on the overall spread

But some people had their heads too deep in the lock down to actually hear/read it!

I think folks here already addressed it. Even so, the Germans appear to have changed their minds in the meantime.

It doesn't matter what we think at the end of the day, you shouldn't be so deathly set to change our minds....

Last edited by greenmount; 18.05.2020 at 11:31. Reason: merging two consecutive posts
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