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  #10301  
Old 13.06.2020, 08:38
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Re: Coronavirus

Do you wear a mask. I don't and never will
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  #10302  
Old 13.06.2020, 10:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Now to address Tony's point - read the paper that accompanies the article. It's only 19 pages so you can handle it. These well-trained researchers clearly state that the soft lockdown measures in CH saved lives.
You can save me the patronising tone, I've posted enough links to scientific studies on here showing that the lockdown has had minimal effect and, in some cases, being shown to have been completely ineffectual.

The problem with the "only 19 pages" study is that again it is based on modeled data (it even references the now debunked Imperial College paper by Professor Neil Ferguson). The studies that use observed data are showing up the statistical models for how poor they have been. The statistical models that have been used require too many variables to even come close to being accurate, which is why the prediction that 5000 people could die in a second wave is almost laughable!

All the observed studies on the R rate of infection show that is was declining before lockdown was implemented. The R graphs verses time show virtually the same shape everywhere which is why I am not convinced that lockdown was a necessary step.
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  #10303  
Old 13.06.2020, 10:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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Y
Also, please stop deciding who should die and who should be allowed to live.
For example by artificially crippling the economy?

There are an abundance of human beings. Too many if anything. There is no material reason to inflict present misery and future poverty on millions of people who are not old and sick with preexisting medical conditions.
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Old 13.06.2020, 10:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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Oh just shut up.

You keep accusing others of facts and figures being meaningless to them..

Yet.

- 20% wiped off GDP - Suggestive lie since there is no loss of 20% of GDP
- Not that the lockdown has saved any lives in any case! - Another lie, the tighter a lockdown, the less social contacts, the less infections meaning less deaths Even my Toddler of 3 understands this, but to be fair to you the average Toddler seems to be smarter than you are.
- Like the fact that the average life expectancy of someone entering a care home is about 12 months - Another lie from you.

I agree that the mods should allow different views, but the only thing you do is keep on disrupting this topic with lies, and that is one of the main reasons why this topic is not an informal open discussion but a huge pile of trash, and a perfect display of the downhill run of this forum.
Again trying to control the narrative "My way is correct and everyone else should be silenced!" Listen to yourself! You do realise this isn't how science works? One group of scientists come up with a hypothesis and another come up with a counter hypothesis and they have it out using facts, figures and data until one side is proven correct.

Lockdown didn't save any lives because the rate of infection would have already dropped below 1 with the measures already in place. Of course I get that everyone staying at home prevents infection. Twisting what has been said is not a good look.

This is the main argument, if governments are going to infringe on people's civil liberties and cause massive economic harm, then the reasons for doing so have to be bulletproof. What is becoming ever more apparent is that the scientific reasoning for lockdown was flimsy at best.

Care home life expectancy can be found here, not a lie:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...%20two%20years.
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  #10305  
Old 13.06.2020, 11:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Lockdown didn't save any lives because the rate of infection would have already dropped below 1 with the measures already in place. Of course I get that everyone staying at home prevents infection. .
Do you not see the error in the logic here?

Lock-down means more people staying at home means less infection means less death. Whether the rate of infection would have have (already? that is a supposition) dropped below one with the measures in place is not relevant. What measures are/were these? eventually it will anyway go below one anyway when enough people die.
Dead people do not transmit Covid.
Delaying getting Ro below one means many more deaths. Switzerland can afford the economic cost. Other countries are not so lucky.


I am pursuing the dialogue with you because, now, with the benefit of hindsight, society gets to choose how we go from here. Getting the arguments clear is important.

Switzerland and the UK are moving to a Swedish style lockdown at this stage. the details of the the future strategy are important both in direct health and economic terms. It will be "interesting" to see how it pans out.
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  #10306  
Old 13.06.2020, 12:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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Care home life expectancy can be found here, not a lie:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...%20two%20years.
Yes, you are lying.

Your over 8 yr old Guardian article:
Quote:
especially when you consider that the average life expectancy of an older person entering a care home is between one and two years.
Your statement:

Quote:
Like the fact that the average life expectancy of someone entering a care home is about 12 months
Here you made the life expectancy shorter to fit your narrative, shows what kind of person you are and what your goal in this topic is which is lying and disrupting

But actually:

UK Government 2017: "The statistics show that the average length of stay in a single residential care home in England that ended in a service users’ death was around 26 months, although this statistic does not include any previous stays in other homes."

https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...017-09-05/8937
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  #10307  
Old 13.06.2020, 12:48
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Re: Coronavirus

Don't want to side track too much but can someone clarify a term for me please? I see "care homes" used a lot.

The U.S. has two types of "homes". One we call nursing home, which is where a person goes when he or she needs daily care and assistance and is not able to live at home. Residents usually share rooms in these facilities.

The second we call assisted living. Residents are older but overall healthy and just don't want all the daily work of a house. Residents have a private apartment with a small kitchenette and bathroom. The facility provides meals and activities as well as doing laundry and cleaning. They have a nurse on site, but the residents don't need daily medical care.

Does "care home" encompass the first only or is it both here in Europe? I'm curious because in the first instance, distancing and whatnot is a challenge because people share rather small rooms and the same nursing staff have to see all the residents multiple times a day. In the second instance, residents have separate apartments and distancing would be easier by just delivering meals.
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  #10308  
Old 13.06.2020, 13:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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Don't want to side track too much but can someone clarify a term for me please? I see "care homes" used a lot.

The U.S. has two types of "homes". One we call nursing home, which is where a person goes when he or she needs daily care and assistance and is not able to live at home. Residents usually share rooms in these facilities.

The second we call assisted living. Residents are older but overall healthy and just don't want all the daily work of a house. Residents have a private apartment with a small kitchenette and bathroom. The facility provides meals and activities as well as doing laundry and cleaning. They have a nurse on site, but the residents don't need daily medical care.

Does "care home" encompass the first only or is it both here in Europe? I'm curious because in the first instance, distancing and whatnot is a challenge because people share rather small rooms and the same nursing staff have to see all the residents multiple times a day. In the second instance, residents have separate apartments and distancing would be easier by just delivering meals.
This might help as far as the UK is concerned, other european countries will be different.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information...-of-care-home/

I think all of these would fall into the category of care homes.

The UK also has assisted living facilities, often referred to as ‘sheltered housing’, and I don’t think those are included in the ‘care home’ category.
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Old 13.06.2020, 14:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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Don't want to side track too much but can someone clarify a term for me please? I see "care homes" used a lot.

The U.S. has two types of "homes". One we call nursing home, which is where a person goes when he or she needs daily care and assistance and is not able to live at home. Residents usually share rooms in these facilities.

The second we call assisted living. Residents are older but overall healthy and just don't want all the daily work of a house. Residents have a private apartment with a small kitchenette and bathroom. The facility provides meals and activities as well as doing laundry and cleaning. They have a nurse on site, but the residents don't need daily medical care.

Does "care home" encompass the first only or is it both here in Europe? I'm curious because in the first instance, distancing and whatnot is a challenge because people share rather small rooms and the same nursing staff have to see all the residents multiple times a day. In the second instance, residents have separate apartments and distancing would be easier by just delivering meals.
It's a general term used for housing for people who are too old and/or ill to take care of themselves. Keeping distance here is indeed often troublesome, which is why Zürich for example designated a few of those complexes for Corona and moved all those identified of having the infection there to keep them away from the others, given the numbers this tactic seemed to have been wise.

Assisted living sounds more like the average retirement home, where people have independent units and can buy in services like cleaning, hygiene and food.
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Old 13.06.2020, 22:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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Again trying to control the narrative "My way is correct and everyone else should be silenced!" Listen to yourself! You do realise this isn't how science works? One group of scientists come up with a hypothesis and another come up with a counter hypothesis and they have it out using facts, figures and data until one side is proven correct.

Lockdown didn't save any lives because the rate of infection would have already dropped below 1 with the measures already in place. Of course I get that everyone staying at home prevents infection. Twisting what has been said is not a good look.

This is the main argument, if governments are going to infringe on people's civil liberties and cause massive economic harm, then the reasons for doing so have to be bulletproof. What is becoming ever more apparent is that the scientific reasoning for lockdown was flimsy at best.

Care home life expectancy can be found here, not a lie:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...%20two%20years.
"Lockdown didn't save any lives because the rate of infection would have already dropped below 1 with the measures already in place." It would have been nice but sadly a fact-free claim.

For example, new cases spiked in Zürich around 22nd March.

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  #10311  
Old 14.06.2020, 09:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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Don't want to side track too much but can someone clarify a term for me please? I see "care homes" used a lot.

The U.S. has two types of "homes". One we call nursing home, which is where a person goes when he or she needs daily care and assistance and is not able to live at home. Residents usually share rooms in these facilities.

The second we call assisted living. Residents are older but overall healthy and just don't want all the daily work of a house. Residents have a private apartment with a small kitchenette and bathroom. The facility provides meals and activities as well as doing laundry and cleaning. They have a nurse on site, but the residents don't need daily medical care.

Does "care home" encompass the first only or is it both here in Europe? I'm curious because in the first instance, distancing and whatnot is a challenge because people share rather small rooms and the same nursing staff have to see all the residents multiple times a day. In the second instance, residents have separate apartments and distancing would be easier by just delivering meals.
There are two types here. Altersheim and Pflegeheim. Both are homes for the elderly. But the Pflegeheim is more for intense care and yes sometimes they do share rooms in such places. Its more of a " hospital " type environment. The Altersheime are more of a " home " type environment.



All the nursing homes have a nursing staff and a restaurant. In Altersheime not all the people residing there need help. Some require no help at all. But they want to have the security that when they need help then its right there where they live. In such homes people generally dont share rooms.
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Old 14.06.2020, 14:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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There are two types here. Altersheim and Pflegeheim. Both are homes for the elderly. But the Pflegeheim is more for intense care and yes sometimes they do share rooms in such places. Its more of a " hospital " type environment. The Altersheime are more of a " home " type environment.

All the nursing homes have a nursing staff and a restaurant. In Altersheime not all the people residing there need help. Some require no help at all. But they want to have the security that when they need help then its right there where they live. In such homes people generally dont share rooms.
Thanks for the replies. In Switzerland, did we have huge numbers of cases and deaths in both types of homes, or mostly in the Pflegeheims?
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Old 14.06.2020, 20:39
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Re: Coronavirus

nice:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...l-false-alarm/
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Old 14.06.2020, 21:24
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Re: Coronavirus

Too early for such reports!
It states a quarter-million deaths so far but that number has already almost doubled and is increasing at over four thousand per day. Which would give similar annual death numbers to the 17/18 flu epidemic despite the worldwide coronavirus lockdowns.
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Old 15.06.2020, 09:44
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Re: Coronavirus

Of course they have, quite apt for this to have come out of Germany. Chancellor Merkel referred to the Coronavirus as "the greatest threat Germany faced since World War 2". To date Germany has had about 9000 Covid related deaths. An average flu season in Germany will see 20-25,000 deaths.
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Old 15.06.2020, 09:55
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Re: Coronavirus

Careful! EdwinNL will be along soon to tell you that you are idiot, donkey and to shut up...
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Old 15.06.2020, 10:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Of course they have, quite apt for this to have come out of Germany. Chancellor Merkel referred to the Coronavirus as "the greatest threat Germany faced since World War 2". To date Germany has had about 9000 Covid related deaths. An average flu season in Germany will see 20-25,000 deaths.
...and as usual ignoring the fact that without lockdown that 9K would have been 100,000 to 200,000 deaths.
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Old 15.06.2020, 11:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Of course they have, quite apt for this to have come out of Germany. Chancellor Merkel referred to the Coronavirus as "the greatest threat Germany faced since World War 2". To date Germany has had about 9000 Covid related deaths. An average flu season in Germany will see 20-25,000 deaths.
Just like evacuation before a hurricane strike. Why evacuate 1 million people if only 10-20 die because of the wind and storm surge? Very idiotic, right?
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Old 15.06.2020, 11:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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...and as usual ignoring the fact that without lockdown that 9K would have been 100,000 to 200,000 deaths.
Just like insert country here

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Just like evacuation before a hurricane strike. Why evacuate 1 million people if only 10-20 die because of the wind and storm surge? Very idiotic, right?
Clearly not the greatest threat since World War 2 though is it?
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Old 15.06.2020, 11:38
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Re: Coronavirus

Just another flu said the dumb people...

In the Netherlands the Lung Foundation did a poll since many people keep on reporting having problems even tho they have beaten the disease (or are assumed to have had it) some time ago. (Dutch Link: https://www.longfonds.nl/Peiling-sch...oronapatienten)

1622 People replied (They specifically asked for people with complaints to respond)

Of these 1622 (Average age 53)

91% has not been in the hospital for Corona
43% has not been officially diagnosed with Corona
85% Said their health was good before the infection, this went down to 6% currently
50% had to give up sporting and is not able yet to start again
60% now has troubles with even a simple thing like walking

Complaints are (but not limited to) exhaustion/exhaustion attacks/fatigue/muscle ache/Burning or painful chest/problems with swallowing/headaches/muscle ache/couching/High heart rate. And almost always it is a combination of several of these things. And a lot of stories of doctors not having a clue yet where to look and no cure, more and more go into therapies for breathing, walking and such.

This is a real problem which up to now has little attention, and no research as to how and why has finished yet.

As for me and my wife, based on symptoms we both are assumed to have had Corona around beginning-mid March, not tested but a lot of the symptoms, we are the group that was told "stay at home and give us a call when you can't handle it anymore", some months later, my wife has 3 failed attempts of picking up work again, she spend some days in the hospital after she fainted outside before she even could walk in, her heartbeat spikes to peaks of 160/170 just while sitting at the couch, we both are mostly exhausted with fatigue attacks that cause us to be so tired that I have to park the car, or sit down in the supermarket and wait if off, pain on the chest comes and goes just like headaches and muscle pains and nobody has a clue how and why.
We both were healthy people in the beginning of the year who could walk 25KM without a problem, now we have pre-fixed meals in the cooler for if we are to tired to cook.

And this is also why I absolutely disgust downplayers like Clifton who clearly have no clue at all what all is happening with their "it only hurts the old and unhealthy" "oh look how many recovered" "it's not that bad" but insist on spreading and trolling their incredible bull-shit, and also why it annoys the F out of me why mods just let him drag EF to the gutter with his shit.
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