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  #10521  
Old 24.06.2020, 18:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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Exactly! The few that chose EXIT are the homo economicus that seems to be an extremely rare species that certain Nobel prize winners would love to talk to
The rest of us are irrational and hence, when told we have terminal cancer we hope a pill will be discovered before the end. We're so irrational particularly about death, that we collapsed the world economy and left tens of millions without jobs because there's 2% more deaths. It's all a great insight into the human psyche.
What about the simple question about the cause of death of an EXIT customer? Cancer or cardiorespiratory arrest induced by drugs requested by the individual being assisted?

About the rationality/irrationality of slowing down the economic life to save a few thousands people: it depends on your values anf your beliefs. I think it was rational because it showed humans as a group can mobilize to help others, that we can work for common goals, trust in unknown ones, high-trust society, foster cooperation and all that. Even if the goal of defeating covid is not achieved the spillover of the trust in others pays a lot in the future.

It may not be rational if you only count money. Albeit, if people if simply let to die because it's not the economical optimal, why pay taxes in first place? Why worry about the others if they're going to give me the middle finger in my last year of life? Why worry about the environment if I leave this place in 20 years?. I know that very well, I come from one of those low trust societies where decisions are the economical optimal for the rich. They hide in gated communities, money is not worth if you fear for your life.
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  #10522  
Old 24.06.2020, 18:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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What about the simple question about the cause of death of an EXIT customer? Cancer or cardiorespiratory arrest induced by drugs requested by the individual being assisted?
Far simpler I believe: suicide although technically not suicide and in some countries the assisting doctors could actually be prosecuted. Having said that, the percentage of such deaths is infinitesimal in the overall frame of things. Not Covid level irrelevant, but infinitesimal as to be completely invisible.


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It may not be rational if you only count money. Albeit, if people if simply let to die because it's not the economical optimal, why pay taxes in first place?
Taxes, just like government induced lock-downs are not an individual choice, they are imposed on you despite whatever your free will is. I believe you mistake this for an imaginary "trust". If anything, trust is eroding, trust that your friend might be infected, trust in fellow shoppers who touch a plastic bag and then leave it, trust in foreigners who come from countries with more relaxed regulations, trust in government over- and under- reacting, etc.

In any case, this is now continuing too long and will likely induce societal changes. Its definitely interesting times
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  #10523  
Old 24.06.2020, 18:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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What about the simple question about the cause of death of an EXIT customer? Cancer or cardiorespiratory arrest induced by drugs requested by the individual being assisted?
If someone has cancer, and is knocked down by a bus and dies, then the cause of death is not cancer but the effects of the impact of the bus.

If someone has cancer, and takes a special toxic drug (from Exit or from elsewhere) the cause of death is not cancer but suicide by the effects of the toxic drug.

If someone has cancer, and contracts Covid-19 such that their organs fail and the person dies, the cause of death is not cancer but the effects of the organ failure through Covid-19.

This is the same for deaths, in general.
If someone goes swimming at the beach and a wave dumps them such that they drown, the cause of death is drowning, or if someone is shot then that is the cause of their death, irrespective of whether they already had heart disease, diabetes, anorexia, emphysema, cancer or AIDS at the time that they drowned, or were shot.

And so on.
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  #10524  
Old 24.06.2020, 19:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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we collapsed the world economy and left tens of millions without jobs because there's 2% more deaths

Applying your same reasoning to the "covid deaths" you could say that they would have been without job anyway within 3-12 months... The economy was already on the brink of collapse... The government action has only accelerated the process... And the one left jobless are the "economically weak individuals" which would have suffered anyway in a matter of months...

Is that a concept you would be willing to support?
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  #10525  
Old 24.06.2020, 19:49
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Re: Coronavirus

I'm posting this again - Covid deaths compared to other causes of death. I put it in the tRump thread, but it might be even more suitable here:

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2645529/
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  #10526  
Old 24.06.2020, 20:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Applying your same reasoning to the "covid deaths" you could say that they would have been without job anyway within 3-12 months... The economy was already on the brink of collapse... The government action has only accelerated the process... And the one left jobless are the "economically weak individuals" which would have suffered anyway in a matter of months...

Is that a concept you would be willing to support?
Shhhh....too much reasoning. "Homo economicus" will bury his/her head in the sand and move along, nothing to see here....

I wonder if "homo economicus" ever thinks of all those spendings with treating covid-19 patients, of the limited human resources that work in the health care system, everything on top of the usual cancers, circulatory system diseases, diabetes, accidents, etc etc etc.

Maybe they want to implement new rules to stop treating covid-19 patients and just discard them on a leper island where the fittest will survive?
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Old 24.06.2020, 20:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Applying your same reasoning to the "covid deaths" you could say that they would have been without job anyway within 3-12 months...
The most impacted people were in the food industry (restaurant workers?), travel (airlines?), entertainment, general services (hairdressers?), etc., etc., and they would not have lost their jobs if there was no lockdown. Spillover is even more massive: suppliers, supporting industries, families with 1 breadearner, etc.

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Last hate post I received: Coronavirus 19.06.2020 22:29 HartMoss Either put up, or shut up.
It goes both ways I have a few love letters from Edwin from the NL too!
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  #10528  
Old 24.06.2020, 20:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut announced Wednesday they are issuing a joint travel advisory requiring travelers from states with high coronavirus infection rates to quarantine for 14 days.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) announced the move at a joint press conference with New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy (D) and Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont (D).

The advisory applies to travelers from Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Washington, Utah, and Texas.
Source

This what happens when you have a President who ignores reality and provides no proper Federal coordination.
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  #10529  
Old 24.06.2020, 20:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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This what happens when you have a President who ignores reality and provides no proper Federal coordination.
This is actually good news! Now we can finally start the process of separating the flyover country into a new state while the south and north states form another one. So Covid is not that dangerous to our health, but it seems to be providing multiple improvement opportunities worldwide
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  #10530  
Old 24.06.2020, 22:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm posting this again - Covid deaths compared to other causes of death. I put it in the tRump thread, but it might be even more suitable here:

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2645529/
I posted that a while back in this thread. I hope you're fully prepared for an avalanche of condescension and disdain from gaburko -- despite the fact that s/he can't comprehend clear English, believing that only 7% of deaths due to the other listed causes have been recorded in that graph vs 100% of COVID-19 deaths, which we now learn are actually cancer deaths); and who has significant issues with simple arithmetic, suggesting that 3,800 (a misleading figure anyway, cherry-picked to produce a low result) divided by 150,000 produces a negligible, sub-1% percentage of deaths.

My advice is to ignore him/her and let him/her chat away to him/herself in his/her padded cell.

Last edited by Guest; 25.06.2020 at 02:41.
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Old 24.06.2020, 22:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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I posted that a while back in this thread. I hope you're fully prepared for an avalanche of condescension and disdain from gaburko -- despite the fact that s/he can't comprehend clear English, believing that only 7% of deaths due to the other listed causes have been recorded in that graph vs 100% of COVID-19 deaths, which we now learn are actually cancer deaths); and who has significant issues with simple arithmetic, suggesting that 3,800 (a misleading figure anyway, cherry-picked to produce a low result) divided by 150,000 produces a negligible, sub-1% percentage of deaths.

My advise is to ignore him/her and let him/her chat away to him/herself in his/her padded cell.
Maybe as a mod you should have a talk with such users so they stop doing what they do instead of telling us to ignore them.
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  #10532  
Old 24.06.2020, 23:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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The "good" news for the States is that while overall cases are increasing, the number of deaths per day is still decreasing. Taking 3 days from the past 3 months from Worldometers:

April 20 - 2,693 deaths
May 20 - 1,400 deaths
June 20 - 700 deaths

Compare that to active cases:
April 20 - 683,742
May 20 - 1,126,920
June 20 - 1,235,657

What we need to watch for now in terms of a second wave is a sharp increase in hospitalizations and deaths, not so much in new cases. I'm not saying new cases are no big deal, but they're not as strong of indicators now as the other two numbers.
Hospitalizations
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Arizona, Arkansas, California, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas –which also confirmed a record daily case increase on Tuesday – each admitted record numbers of infected people to hospital.
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Outlook is bleak.
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  #10533  
Old 25.06.2020, 00:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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The most impacted people were in the food industry (restaurant workers?), travel (airlines?), entertainment, general services (hairdressers?), etc., etc., and they would not have lost their jobs if there was no lockdown. Spillover is even more massive: suppliers, supporting industries, families with 1 breadearner, etc.
You are serving me this on a silver platter similar statements (but related to the rapid increase in number of deaths) have been dismissed in this thread as:
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You are overreacting
It's just panic caused by media hype
This is not supported by real numbers
The exact same mechanism could be used now to dismiss your statement.
I'm not going to carry on with this "exercise" any further, I'm of the opinion that I made my point and that's good enough for me.
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  #10534  
Old 25.06.2020, 09:56
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Re: Coronavirus

Shocking figures from the IMF yesterday regarding the economic hit the Coronavirus will have. It's the IMF so these predictions come with all the usual health warnings. Debt due to shoot above GDP in many developed countries, Euro Area and UK due to have a drop of 10.2%, US a drop of 8%, Japan a drop of 5.7% China remarkably growth of 1% (yeah right!).

I only hope people remember the clamour for continued lockdowns when this begins to bite and if/when measures like austerity are required
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Old 25.06.2020, 10:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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Shocking figures from the IMF yesterday regarding the economic hit the Coronavirus will have. It's the IMF so these predictions come with all the usual health warnings. Debt due to shoot above GDP in many developed countries, Euro Area and UK due to have a drop of 10.2%, US a drop of 8%, Japan a drop of 5.7% China remarkably growth of 1% (yeah right!).

I only hope people remember the clamour for continued lockdowns when this begins to bite and if/when measures like austerity are required
We currently have about 190,000 Covid deaths in Europe. Without the lockdowns and similar measures that would be at perhaps a million or more. That level of deaths would have changed people's behaviour sufficiently to have pretty well the same impact on the economy anyway.
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Old 25.06.2020, 10:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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We currently have about 190,000 Covid deaths in Europe. Without the lockdowns and similar measures that would be at perhaps a million or more. That level of deaths would have changed people's behaviour sufficiently to have pretty well the same impact on the economy anyway.
Thankfully nowhere has seen a million or more deaths, lockdown or not.
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  #10537  
Old 25.06.2020, 12:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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The most impacted people were in the food industry (restaurant workers?), travel (airlines?), entertainment, general services (hairdressers?), etc., etc., and they would not have lost their jobs if there was no lockdown. Spillover is even more massive: suppliers, supporting industries, families with 1 breadearner, etc.

Families with 1 breadearner? Why should I care for the families who wanted a trophy partner? Marrying an economically unproductive individual is a luxury, not a human right. What happened to the Homo Economicus?
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  #10538  
Old 25.06.2020, 12:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Families with 1 breadearner? Why should I care for the families who wanted a trophy partner?
I have no idea who you're arguing with, but someone earlier said that:

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I think it was rational because it showed humans as a group can mobilize to help others, that we can work for common goals, trust in unknown ones, high-trust society, foster cooperation and all that.
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You are serving me this on a silver platter...
the cool thing about using quotes without quoting anyone gives incredible depth and sophistication to otherwise BS statements


Last edited by gaburko; 25.06.2020 at 12:56.
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  #10539  
Old 25.06.2020, 12:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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Families with 1 breadearner? Why should I care for the families who wanted a trophy partner?
Trophy partner, really?
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  #10540  
Old 25.06.2020, 13:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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If someone has cancer, and is knocked down by a bus and dies, then the cause of death is not cancer but the effects of the impact of the bus.

If someone has cancer, and takes a special toxic drug (from Exit or from elsewhere) the cause of death is not cancer but suicide by the effects of the toxic drug.

If someone has cancer, and contracts Covid-19 such that their organs fail and the person dies, the cause of death is not cancer but the effects of the organ failure through Covid-19.

This is the same for deaths, in general.
If someone goes swimming at the beach and a wave dumps them such that they drown, the cause of death is drowning, or if someone is shot then that is the cause of their death, irrespective of whether they already had heart disease, diabetes, anorexia, emphysema, cancer or AIDS at the time that they drowned, or were shot.

And so on.
What about people with AIDS, do the die because of HIV or because of the pathogen they had no defense against?

I had a long argument with my father in law about corona and how we handle it.
Firstly, has my father in law and gaburko are saying, I agree there is a degree of uncertainty wheter to assign death to covid or a preexisting condition.
Secondly, I dont' get why there is always such a focus on the number of deaths. Wheter there are 9000 deaths, 11000 deaths or 7000 deaths in germany doesnt really matter (Of course, every single one is tragic, dont misunderstand me please).
Whats important though is how many survived because there were enough resources for the proper treatment.
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