Coronavirus - Page 54

appcell · #**1061** 28.02.2020, 16:45

	Quote:
	Yes, a mask on a patient prevents infection being spread from the infected person (see below for protection against viruses). SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID 19 (yes, COVID 19 is not a virus, just as AIDS is not) has an R0 of about 2. What that means is that it's about twice as contagious (easily spread) as the most common human influenzavirus. So if an infected person and you are in the same room, you have a good chance of catching the SARS-CoV-2 virus, especially if the infected person sneezes (and no, his/her armpit (I guess you mean elbow, unless the patient is a contortionist) won't catch all the droplets of the sneeze). Doctors wear masks primarily to protect immune-compromised patients from catching viruses or bacteria they (the doctors) may have. Surgical masks are assessed (or "measured") for their effectiveness in filtering from the inside to the outside. They get wet from exhaled breath quite quickly, at which point they become a virus trap that could infect the wearer. Respirators, on the other hand, are graded on their effectiveness in filtering from the outside in. These protect the wearer from particles of varying fineness, even down to viruses. For that level of protection, the respirator needs to be graded FFP2 (high filtering) or FFP3 (the maximum). An example of an FFP2 respirator is 3M's N95. The masks you see in photographs of people walking around in Asian cities are largely useless for preventing viral infection of the wearer.

That's a lot of information. Thank you.

spaghetti · #**1062** 28.02.2020, 16:49

	Quote:
	Yes, a mask on a patient prevents infection being spread from the infected person (see below for protection against viruses). The masks you see in photographs of people walking around in Asian cities are largely useless for preventing viral infection of the wearer.

It's also a good thing then, when most of the crowd in hong kong public transport are now wearing masks, to reduce transmission, right?

appcell · #**1063** 28.02.2020, 16:49

	Quote:	HIAO
	https://www.ghi.ch/le-journal/la-une...e-fait-tousser Article in french. In brief.. An 86 year old Genevois returned from China and developed flu-like symptoms. When he called 144, he was told that he needed to be tested at hospital. He proposed to take the bus, which was understandably not well-received. An ambulance was dispatched and men in white suits knocked on his door to escort him to hospital. Thankfully, he was not suffering from coronavirus. He was feeling sick after receiving a bill for the ambulance, which is only partially reimbursable. His trip to the hospital cost around half of his monthly pension. The elderly are vulnerable in more ways than one.

I believe most of us are vulnerable in that specific area.

#**1064** 28.02.2020, 16:53

	Quote:	spaghetti
	It's also a good thing then, when most of the crowd in hong kong public transport are now wearing masks, to reduce transmission, right?

Yes, in theory there should be less chance of the virus being disseminated by sneezing and coughing. But if a mask-wearer touches an infected surface, then touches their own face (even on the mask), the mask won't do much to prevent the virus from transferring to the wearer, especially if it has become wet.

appcell · #**1065** 28.02.2020, 16:55

	Quote:	spaghetti
	It's also a good thing then, when most of the crowd in hong kong public transport are now wearing masks, to reduce transmission, right?

From what I learnt (mostly from this thread), it works if most people are wearing masks (e.g. in Japan/SK/Hongkong). But when nobody's wearing masks, then masks become useless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Unfortunately the masks in Switzerland are running out. I wonder where they went, since nobody's wearing them at all.

DUTCH · #**1066** 28.02.2020, 16:55

	Quote:
	SARS-CoV-2 has an R0 of about 2. What that means is that it's about twice as contagious (easily spread) as the most common human influenzavirus.

R0 of 2 means, that on average each infected person passes on the infection to 2 other people. Normal flu has R0 of 1.3 and Coronavirus has R0 of 2, so far.

Just wanted it to be clear.

omtatsat · #**1067** 28.02.2020, 17:01

In China its already finished! Here they make such a big deal. Typical Swiss!

#**1068** 28.02.2020, 17:03

	Quote:	omtatsat
	In China its already finished! Here they make such a big deal. Typical Swiss!

You'd be the only one in Switzerland to believe the Chinese numbers I'd say.

And you need another time-out it seems.

Noth · #**1069** 28.02.2020, 17:06

	Quote:	appcell
	From what I learnt (mostly from this thread), it works if most people are wearing masks (e.g. in Japan/SK/Hongkong). But when nobody's wearing masks, then masks become useless. Correct me if I'm wrong. Unfortunately the masks in Switzerland are running out. I wonder where they went, since nobody's wearing them at all.

The Swiss hoard at least as well as the rest of the world. But they may have shipped some stocks to help out China when they requested assistance. I do find it very weird that these stocks are so low here now.

Also of note, from the Vaud Cantonal Doctor: It takes 15 minutes to be infected by someone within a 2 meter radius if they're coughing etc. It takes someone quite seriously ill to be able to expectorate the virus. Make of that what you will, they've been hiding information on this including how many are being isolated. I'm going to read up on what on what happens in this country if and when we enter the third stage of the law on epidemics. It might be quite enlighting (remember Switzerland can start blocking the Internet at will since the law on protecting Swiss casinos passed, the ISPs can be made to block anything they require in case of urgent necessity now).

Here's the law (in French, nothing in English I'm afraid): https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...012/index.html . Epidemic stage is nice and vague: from Article 7: Si une situation extraordinaire l’exige, le Conseil fédéral peut ordonner les mesures nécessaires pour tout ou partie du pays = If an exceptional situation makes it necessary, the Federal Council can order the necessary measures for all or part of the country. Make of that what you will.

omtatsat · #**1070** 28.02.2020, 17:08

	Quote:
	You'd be the only one in Switzerland to believe the Chinese numbers I'd say. And you need another time-out it seems.

Well I am from the Medicine profession so I have things more in perspective

Easyjet streicht Flüge, Zahl der Fälle in Deutschland steigt rasant
Deutschland meldet knapp 60 bestätigte Infektionen. Der Anstieg der Corona-Fälle in China flacht ab. Die News im Ticker.

spaghetti · #**1071** 28.02.2020, 17:10

	Quote:	Noth
	The Swiss hoard at least as well as the rest of the world. But they may have shipped some stocks to help out China when they requested assistance. I do find it very weird that these stocks are so low here now. Also of note, from the Vaud Cantonal Doctor: It takes 15 minutes to be infected by someone within a 2 meter radius if they're coughing etc. It takes someone quite seriously ill to be able to expectorate the virus**. Make of that what you will, they've been hiding information on this including how many are being isolated. I'm going to read up on what on what happens in this country if and when we enter the third stage of the law on epidemics. It might be quite enlighting (remember Switzerland can start blocking the Internet at will since the law on protecting Swiss casinos passed, the ISPs can be made to block anything they require in case of urgent necessity now).

uh, no wonder most infected ones from hong kong were involved in family/social dinner gatherings. well, and in cruiseships...

** but wait, are u sure? what about those super-spreaders with no symptoms?

McTAVGE · #**1072** 28.02.2020, 17:13

	Quote:	Harrie Nak
	Crap, Geneva car show and Microsoft Ignite The Tour both canceled. There go my plans for next week.

Ha, for once during the Geneva Car Show, i might have full classes instead of the little buggers skiving school with their parents to buy the latest fancy car model (each + one smaller one for the nanny!)

heckenhocker · #**1073** 28.02.2020, 17:18

	Quote:	OSueco
	Since you seem to know a lot, do you know where I can get information about which precautions to take for persons with pre-existing conditions like single ventricle heart/Fontan surgery and asplenia? Cannot get through to the BAG hotline... Thanks Evalo

The official advice to doctors (from BAG today) is
- continue normal precautions handwashing / alcohol gels, sneeze into elbow /tissue. Particularly important for vulnerable patients.
- face masks are not necessary or appropriate measure for general population / patients unless they have cough / acute respiratory infection
- vulnerable patients: medical staff should wear a regular face mask when treating, as a practical "just in case" measure to help reduce potential infection from the medic to the patient.
- for full prevention of infection, FFP2 masks are needed. These are being distributed to medical facilities via the Kantonal Apotheken.
- stand by your beds ready for new orders if things change.

omtatsat · #**1074** 28.02.2020, 17:18

	Quote:	McTAVGE
	Ha, for once during the Geneva Car Show, i might have full classes instead of the little buggers skiving school with their parents to buy the latest fancy car model (each + one smaller one for the nanny!)

Dont worry. Theres always the Zurich motor salon!

Blueangel · #**1075** 28.02.2020, 17:28

	Quote:	appcell
	About the doctor wearing masks part: When treating the infected, do the doctors wear masks purely for protecting the patients from further diseases, or they do want to protect themselves?

Remember that a dentist has their gloved hands in your mouth but still wears a mask. Their gloves and mask are to protect the patient. Their personal hygiene routines are to protect both the dentist and the patient.

	Quote:	spaghetti
	Not sure about europe as well but in china they cremate the dead bodies immediately, I heard not even chance to say goodbye

Well that's getting a bit ghoulish about things, and we need to remember that different countries and cultures have different attitudes and customs in this matter.

What will be helpful is if we recognise that this virus can live on hard surfaces for up to 5 days, and 'close proximity' is within 2 meters.

Patxi · #**1076** 28.02.2020, 17:35

	Quote:	omtatsat
	In China its already finished! Here they make such a big deal. Typical Swiss!

They make a big deal of it yet do nothing substantial to stop it. China has done a fantastic job of getting a handle on the situation and implementing a plan to treat the increasing number of patients. They will get their industry back in action soon, with contingency plans, while the rest of the world will be caught with their pants down never admitting that China has their shit together.

OSueco · #**1077** 28.02.2020, 17:38

	Quote:	heckenhocker
	The official advice to doctors (from BAG today) is - continue normal precautions handwashing / alcohol gels, sneeze into elbow /tissue. Particularly important for vulnerable patients. - face masks are not necessary or appropriate measure for general population / patients unless they have cough / acute respiratory infection - vulnerable patients: medical staff should wear a regular face mask when treating, as a practical "just in case" measure to help reduce potential infection from the medic to the patient. - for full prevention of infection, FFP2 masks are needed. These are being distributed to medical facilities via the Kantonal Apotheken. - stand by your beds ready for new orders if things change.

Thanks!

My boss granted me home office for a week, isolation ftw!

Chuff · #**1078** 28.02.2020, 17:48

	Quote:	Patxi
	They make a big deal of it yet do nothing substantial to stop it. China has done a fantastic job of getting a handle on the situation and implementing a plan to treat the increasing number of patients. They will get their industry back in action soon, with contingency plans, while the rest of the world will be caught with their pants down never admitting that China has their shit together.

WTF... are you a Chinese spokesman or something?

China's handling of the crisis has been widely reported by almost all independent media outlets as pretty horrific with a lot of cover-ups and human rights abuses.

Noth · #**1079** 28.02.2020, 17:48

In more positive news, the Women's Strike is cancelled across the country. It was due for the usual 8th of March date (which would have been a Sunday, so most of the participants wouldn't have had to take a day off).

spaghetti · #**1080** 28.02.2020, 17:50

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Well that's getting a bit ghoulish about things, and we need to remember that different countries and cultures have different attitudes and customs in this matter. What will be helpful is if we recognise that this virus can live on hard surfaces for up to 5 days, and 'close proximity' is within 2 meters.

i know it's necessary it's just sad