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Old 19.08.2020, 15:36
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Re: Coronavirus

I saw this article in The Local today:

‘Hundreds’ to attend coronavirus conspiracy rally in Zurich

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200818/hun...ally-in-zurich

Not quite sure what exactly they're protesting against, as the lockdown ended here months ago. It's interesting (rather, pathetic) when people feel that their 'personal freedoms' are more important than the safety of the entire population and trying to bring an end to a pandemic. I'll post the text from the article below in case others don't have a subscription to The Local:


An estimated 500 people are set to attend a ‘coronavirus skeptic’ rally in Zurich in late August after the demonstration received police approval.

The rally, to take place on August 29th at Helvetiaplatz in Zurich, will be attended by several groups who are skeptical about the pandemic and/or who oppose the current lockdown measures.

While 500 supporters are expected, counter protesters have also announced their intention to attend.

The groups who have indicated their intention to attend include “Friends of the Constitution”, “Network Vaccination Decision” and “Citizens' Forum Switzerland”.

Patrick Jetzer, one of the rally organisers, told Swiss media outlet 20 Minutes that the diverse groups were united by their feelings on the virus and the government’s lockdown measures.

“The participants in the demonstration do not position themselves politically on the left or on the right, conservative or liberal. Different people will join us.”

Jetzer compared the virus to the flu.

“The rally is important because we are defending ourselves against the restrictions on our rights to freedom,” he said.

“If you look at the mortality from Corona, it is in a similar range to that of a stronger flu epidemic. We therefore see no justification for such restrictions as those issued by the Federal Council.”

“There are studies that show that the masks are counterproductive.

“Masks are not hygienic to wear in public. Any use of masks can only be proven for operating theatres and laboratories.

Jetzer did not indicate which studies he was referring to.

The death rate with covid-19 is roughly ten times higher than that of the flu, while the official Swiss federal task force find that “wearing a protective mask reduces the risk of infecting others and yourself.”

Police approved the rally, saying that it was difficult to know how many would actually be in attendance.

“So far, at least in similar demonstrations in the city, we have seen that there have been a few hundred, sometimes a few dozen”

Counter protesters set to attend

While 500 supporters are expected, counter protesters have also said publicly they will attend the rally.

The Antifacist Action group of Zurich said it will encourage its members and supporters to attend “to show that coronavirus conspiracy theorists are not welcome in Switzerland”.
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  #11802  
Old 19.08.2020, 16:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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I saw this article in The Local today:

‘Hundreds’ to attend coronavirus conspiracy rally in Zurich

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200818/hun...ally-in-zurich

Not quite sure what exactly they're protesting against, as the lockdown ended here months ago. It's interesting (rather, pathetic) when people feel that their 'personal freedoms' are more important than the safety of the entire population and trying to bring an end to a pandemic. I'll post the text from the article below in case others don't have a subscription to The Local:


An estimated 500 people are set to attend a ‘coronavirus skeptic’ rally in Zurich in late August after the demonstration received police approval.

The rally, to take place on August 29th at Helvetiaplatz in Zurich, will be attended by several groups who are skeptical about the pandemic and/or who oppose the current lockdown measures.

While 500 supporters are expected, counter protesters have also announced their intention to attend.

The groups who have indicated their intention to attend include “Friends of the Constitution”, “Network Vaccination Decision” and “Citizens' Forum Switzerland”.

Patrick Jetzer, one of the rally organisers, told Swiss media outlet 20 Minutes that the diverse groups were united by their feelings on the virus and the government’s lockdown measures.

“The participants in the demonstration do not position themselves politically on the left or on the right, conservative or liberal. Different people will join us.”

Jetzer compared the virus to the flu.

“The rally is important because we are defending ourselves against the restrictions on our rights to freedom,” he said.

“If you look at the mortality from Corona, it is in a similar range to that of a stronger flu epidemic. We therefore see no justification for such restrictions as those issued by the Federal Council.”

“There are studies that show that the masks are counterproductive.

“Masks are not hygienic to wear in public. Any use of masks can only be proven for operating theatres and laboratories.

Jetzer did not indicate which studies he was referring to.

The death rate with covid-19 is roughly ten times higher than that of the flu, while the official Swiss federal task force find that “wearing a protective mask reduces the risk of infecting others and yourself.”

Police approved the rally, saying that it was difficult to know how many would actually be in attendance.

“So far, at least in similar demonstrations in the city, we have seen that there have been a few hundred, sometimes a few dozen”

Counter protesters set to attend

While 500 supporters are expected, counter protesters have also said publicly they will attend the rally.

The Antifacist Action group of Zurich said it will encourage its members and supporters to attend “to show that coronavirus conspiracy theorists are not welcome in Switzerland”.
Good that we have Antifas that can decide for us which opinions are allowed and which not...
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  #11803  
Old 19.08.2020, 16:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Good that we have Antifas that can decide for us which opinions are allowed and which not...
Right. And if it was a group of Neo-Nazis protesting here, we should just hold up signs that say "Welcome!" because we certainly wouldn't want them or anyone to think that their views aren't welcomed here.
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  #11804  
Old 19.08.2020, 16:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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I saw this article in The Local today:

‘Hundreds’ to attend coronavirus conspiracy rally in Zurich

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200818/hun...ally-in-zurich


The Antifacist Action group of Zurich said it will encourage its members and supporters to attend “to show that coronavirus conspiracy theorists are not welcome in Switzerland”. [/SIZE]
The counter protest will look a bit strange with them posted along at 2 meter intervals! Then again there are no Antifa members so it will just be the supporters.

I can't see the point of the protest, there is very little lockdown in this country and they'll only be stirring up trouble.
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  #11805  
Old 19.08.2020, 16:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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Right. And if it was a group of Neo-Nazis protesting here, we should just hold up signs that say "Welcome!" because we certainly wouldn't want them or anyone to think that their views aren't welcomed here.
Fascism is terrible, no question. But I'm struggling to understand why an anti-fascist group is counter-protesting a group that does not have a fascist political agenda.

Or maybe they do and "Friends of the Constitution”, “Network Vaccination Decision” and “Citizens' Forum Switzerland" are fascist. I'll admit I've not looked them up beyond a quick google showing nothing.
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  #11806  
Old 19.08.2020, 16:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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The counter protest will look a bit strange with them posted along at 2 meter intervals! Then again there are no Antifa members so it will just be the supporters.

I can't see the point of the protest, there is very little lockdown in this country and they'll only be stirring up trouble.
There was no May 1st "Rambazamba" (hullabaloo? makeshift protest just to let off steam), they're on cold turkey.
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  #11807  
Old 19.08.2020, 17:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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Hey, "don't shoot the messenger." I didn't just "throw around 200 million people in the same bucket." I linked to and quoted a study. I'm sorry if you don't like its findings, but that doesn't make it false.
Hi, sorry I didn't see your post before.
Well this
"Well, in the US, being conservative does usually mean that someone is one of the 3 R's: rich, racist or religious.
Or all of the above."

sounds awfully generalizing to me. Or its just true, what do I know, I only spent 4 weeks in the US as a tourist. I'd hope that Americans aren't that two dimensional, though. But If you would transfer that on swiss SVP voters you would be wrong.

You can discuss the validity of this study with MC if you like. For the point I was trying to make lets just assume it is true. What now?


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Also, you shouldn't make assumptions about me trying to get a sense of supremacy or that I don't listen to "even moderate conservatives." Most of my family members in the US are conservatives. They're the type that claim to be Christian and yet have never read the Bible and never go to church. They're also openly racist.
My statement wasn't about you, just about what parties on the left do with the "fact from your study": Smart people vote left.
Every time some SP Initiative gets shut down at the voting both, there are numerous voices from politicians "we couldn't explain it simple to the center (right) voters. Or in discussions something along the lines of: If you were smarter/more educated you would agree with me.

I could see how this behaviour pushed my parents (loyal leftist sp voters) to the right(ish) side.

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So while indeed, there may be nothing wrong with being rich or being religious, there is a problem when people try to use their religion as a means to justify the restriction of other people's rights. Not to mention religious people who would prefer kids in public schools to be taught about creationism rather than evolution, etc. or use their religion to feel that it somehow grants them automatic righteousness.
You are running down open doors here, couldn't agree more.
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  #11808  
Old 19.08.2020, 17:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Good that we have Antifas that can decide for us which opinions are allowed and which not...
What Antifas? I thought Antifa is short for ant-fascist (which should be the stance of any decent human being, in my opinion). These guys aren't anti-fascist, they are apparently anti-facist. Big difference! (And a pretty sinister platform, if you ask me!)
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  #11809  
Old 19.08.2020, 17:25
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Re: Coronavirus

Thd 3 Rs sound cliche, I do know Rs that aren't rich, racist nor dogmatically religious. Nothing wrong with religion per se, in my books. But I fail to see how political polarity in the US (those Rs I know are quite dicrete and respectful and not older than me and in academia, so stuff the "R->dumb" study) relates to CV. It doesn't. Relating it is creating a consp. theory, so..It is just a 3 R opinion, that's all.

Nor do I believe that what used to be the left/right divisive issues, this is changing and fast.

Btw, teaching creationism in schools here in Europe is also not a science class program but "religions of the world" curriculum. It makes a difference.
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  #11810  
Old 19.08.2020, 17:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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What Antifas? I thought Antifa is short for ant-fascist (which should be the stance of any decent human being, in my opinion). These guys aren't anti-fascist, they are apparently anti-facist. Big difference! (And a pretty sinister platform, if you ask me!)

I've overseen this and as the article was published by the most reliable source of news, it cannot be a typo.


So the definition of facist is: a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people not wearing face masks, or who hate American Patriots who don’t believe the pandemic propaganda. (according to leading source Urban Dictionary)



it means that the demonstrators and counter-demonstrators actually agree with each other
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  #11811  
Old 19.08.2020, 18:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've overseen this and as the article was published by the most reliable source of news, it cannot be a typo.


So the definition of facist is: a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people not wearing face masks, or who hate American Patriots who don’t believe the pandemic propaganda. (according to leading source Urban Dictionary)



it means that the demonstrators and counter-demonstrators actually agree with each other
I agree that, coming from The Local, this news is above scrutiny and must be accurate. But checking out #antifacist on the leading search engine Instagram, all I can see is a lot of faces, including that of a cat. So I'm not convinced by your explanation (apart from your suggestion that both sides agree that having a face could be beneficial).

Also, I checked the go-to site for all things lexicological, the Urban Dictionary, and I was shocked to find no entry for "anti-facist"! Shocked, I say! This led me not to believe anything in your post! Mind you, the Urban Dictionary has no entry for "lexicological", either.
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  #11812  
Old 19.08.2020, 19:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Fascism is terrible, no question. But I'm struggling to understand why an anti-fascist group is counter-protesting a group that does not have a fascist political agenda.

Or maybe they do and "Friends of the Constitution”, “Network Vaccination Decision” and “Citizens' Forum Switzerland" are fascist. I'll admit I've not looked them up beyond a quick google showing nothing.
Yeah, I don't really understand it either, to be honest... But from I've seen lately, it's become rather 'fashionable' to protest. I don't say that as a means to put down protesting in general, but protesting doesn't really seem to do nearly as much for a cause as do other things. For example, voting. I don't know... maybe antifa feels a need to involve itself any time there is a protest? (no idea)

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Hi, sorry I didn't see your post before.
Well this
"Well, in the US, being conservative does usually mean that someone is one of the 3 R's: rich, racist or religious.
Or all of the above."

sounds awfully generalizing to me. Or its just true, what do I know, I only spent 4 weeks in the US as a tourist. I'd hope that Americans aren't that two dimensional, though. But If you would transfer that on swiss SVP voters you would be wrong.

You can discuss the validity of this study with MC if you like. For the point I was trying to make lets just assume it is true. What now?
No, I won't discuss it with MC. I can't block her because she's a mod, so instead, I just try to ignore anything she posts.

But what I wrote wasn't really generalizing. I didn't say that I think all conservatives are rich, racist and religious. What I said (or intended to imply at least) is that those are the typical characteristics that are associated with conservatism in the US. So of course, there are some conservatives who are not rich or not racist, etc. But you can't deny that there are certain ideologies and characteristics that are associated more with the right than the left (and vice-versa).
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Old 19.08.2020, 19:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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Where does the UK fit into all these restrictions btw? Because it doesn't appear in this list

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#app1

nor this one.

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...tml#1918240392

Nor is it part of Schengen. Or are the Schengen rules extended to the UK?
When they first announced that travel was allowed again it said “from Schengen/EU + U.K.” ...... they now appear to have forgotten that the U.K. is not Schengen..... but it is included!
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Old 19.08.2020, 23:03
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Re: Coronavirus

Can't be bothered to search for it right now but someone (FMF?) claimed a couple of days back that Sweden had below average deaths.

The truth is they have had the most recorded deaths in the first half of 2020 in 150 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-half-of-2020
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Old 19.08.2020, 23:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Can't be bothered to search for it right now but someone (FMF?) claimed a couple of days back that Sweden had below average deaths.

The truth is they have had the most recorded deaths in the first half of 2020 in 150 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-half-of-2020
Only if you don't adjust for population size. It's 55k versus 51k last year.
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  #11816  
Old 19.08.2020, 23:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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Thd 3 Rs sound cliche, I do know Rs that aren't rich, racist nor dogmatically religious. Nothing wrong with religion per se, in my books. But I fail to see how political polarity in the US (those Rs I know are quite dicrete and respectful and not older than me and in academia, so stuff the "R->dumb" study) relates to CV. It doesn't. Relating it is creating a consp. theory, so..It is just a 3 R opinion, that's all.

Nor do I believe that what used to be the left/right divisive issues, this is changing and fast.

Btw, teaching creationism in schools here in Europe is also not a science class program but "religions of the world" curriculum. It makes a difference.
What do you mean by the 3 Rs?

I know a couple of possible definitions for the 3 Rs but neither of them seem to fit with what you’ve written.
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  #11817  
Old 20.08.2020, 09:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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What do you mean by the 3 Rs?

I know a couple of possible definitions for the 3 Rs but neither of them seem to fit with what you’ve written.
Unless I've missed the 3 R's are (Rich, Racist, Religious) = Republican (Another R), they're in the first line of the post.
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Old 20.08.2020, 10:03
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Re: Coronavirus

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Unless I've missed the 3 R's are (Rich, Racist, Religious) = Republican (Another R), they're in the first line of the post.
Thanks.
I hadn’t picked up on that probably because to me the 3Rs are ingrained as reading, writing and arithmetic or latterly reduce, reuse and recycle.
The post makes a bit more sense now.
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Old 20.08.2020, 10:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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I guess it was only a matter of time
That right there is the attribute that gets liberals those higher intelligence scores, the ability (and willingness) to see how things are connected. Conservatives love to view everything in isolation so they don’t have to accept the consequences of their apathy and recklessness. Sorry to tell you Tony, in this world EVERYTHING is connected in one way or another. It’s just a matter of being smart enough to see it.
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  #11820  
Old 20.08.2020, 10:36
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Re: Coronavirus

Can a moderator perhaps move the socialist vs conservative and democratic vs republican posts to a separate thread, as they are irrelevant to the coronavirus?
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