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Old 01.09.2020, 06:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Increasing cases doesn't equal "It's over". You can argue the virus seems to be much less deadly now, but it's still highly contagious and far from over.
I wonder if or how his attitudes would change if he or a loved one contracted a nasty case of it. I'm guessing all Of a sudden it wouldn't be so inconsequential.
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  #12062  
Old 01.09.2020, 09:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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Other explanations are indeed available.

1. More testing and better accuracy, more positive results including people who are essentially asymptomatic.
2. Spread among younger people
3. Old people/those at risk are getting better at protecting themselves.

For example. Who knows?
Additionally, the higher the viral load received, the worse the symptoms, and the outcome.

People are getting better at protecting themselves, and others with screening, distancing and masks.

Even if wearing a mask is not 100% effective, the viral load received by a bystander if an infected person wearing a mask coughs near them will be much less than if the infected person was not wearing a mask.

Less load means milder symptoms and perhaps the difference between recovering at home compared with recovery or dying in a hospital.
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  #12063  
Old 01.09.2020, 09:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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Increasing cases doesn't equal "It's over". You can argue the virus seems to be much less deadly now, but it's still highly contagious and far from over.
I know the virus isn't finished, but it's certainly over as a world stopping catastrophe that we need to be hidden away from. The best the media can come up with now is to publish individual stories like the one from Jeep Life, which although good at spreading fear, do not fairly represent the overall impact of the virus.

Notice how seamlessly the media have pivoted away from reporting the number of deaths to reporting the number of new cases. All the while, death rates and hospitalisation rates have remained very low. It is so important to look at the whole picture and not just reported cases!

I'm not one of those who say that the virus is a hoax, I just believe it is very real but something we can live with. In fact, I expect cases to rise again come the winter (and probably every winter like a seasonal flu), and although one wouldn't want to get it, the point remains statistically for the vast majority of people it's not that bad.

I also understand why people are angry, it's perfectly normal to be angry. After bombarding the public with carefully crafted psychological messaging to terrify them, persuading them that 20 times the number of people have died from Covid than have actually done so. Having been so thoroughly persuaded as to this lie, it is deeply uncomfortable for many people to now be able to face the truth.

I don't believe this was planned btw, or some grand conspiracy, rather sheer incompetence and fear of doing the wrong thing by various national governments. Now we know the truth, our behaviour now needs to change. Cases increasing but death rates remain low. This is the headline! We can blame the government or the media but ultimately when people are still demanding draconian measures long after the crisis is over we have to start looking at ourselves.
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  #12064  
Old 01.09.2020, 09:43
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Re: Coronavirus

FYI:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-statisticians
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  #12065  
Old 01.09.2020, 09:49
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Re: Coronavirus

COVID19 is far from over.

1. Policy dictates that I must wear a mask while teaching.
2. All my teenage students must wear masks.
3. The windows must remain open
4. We are getting messages of informing us that students who we taught the week before are now in quarantine.

Believe me, COVID19 is going to stay with us a long time.
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  #12066  
Old 01.09.2020, 10:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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I also understand why people are angry, it's perfectly normal to be angry. After bombarding the public with carefully crafted psychological messaging to terrify them, persuading them that 20 times the number of people have died from Covid than have actually done so. Having been so thoroughly persuaded as to this lie, it is deeply uncomfortable for many people to now be able to face the truth.

I don't believe this was planned btw, or some grand conspiracy, rather sheer incompetence and fear of doing the wrong thing by various national governments. Now we know the truth, our behaviour now needs to change. Cases increasing but death rates remain low. This is the headline! We can blame the government or the media but ultimately when people are still demanding draconian measures long after the crisis is over we have to start looking at ourselves.
I'm neither angry not uncomfortable to face the truth. But, if it makes you feel better to believe it, be my guest

Concerning government, I'll take any day the people with fear of doing the wrong thing over the idiots that believe they can do no wrong. It is also true that under uncertainty some people want "strong" leaders (the idiots that believe they can do no wrong). There are situations were the strong leaders may be optimal (war), but we cannot defeat a virus with big words, shooting or bombing.

Our behavior has already changed. Almost everyone is back to their jobs, children are back to school, I see more airplanes in the sky, and last weekend the A1 between Zofingen and Bern was almost a parking. I think the only thing missing by now is gathering of thousands people: sports events,concerts, what else? Our behavior needs to change is an strawman, since everyone out there already did it.
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  #12067  
Old 01.09.2020, 11:47
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Re: Coronavirus

In Bern to ZH train yesterday, I saw police get on the train and enforce the mask rule. One lady with no mask handed a doctor letter, the policeman looked at it for a long time and then let her be without mask.

At ZH she got off and the first thing she did was light up a cigarette.

Then I got on the bus and same crap, people with no masks or mask on the mouth only. Either enforce the rule with heavy fines or don't have them in the first place!

I try to ignore the mask dodgers but it really grinds me everything I see them. So much selfishness!
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  #12068  
Old 01.09.2020, 13:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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Almost everyone is back to their jobs
...except the ones who lost theirs or went bankrupt.
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  #12069  
Old 01.09.2020, 14:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Notice how seamlessly the media have pivoted away from reporting the number of deaths to reporting the number of new cases. All the while, death rates and hospitalisation rates have remained very low. It is so important to look at the whole picture and not just reported cases!
Why. Are. You. So. Focused. On. Deaths?

Have you read nothing about the effects of the illness on various body functions -- and not just in the old?
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  #12070  
Old 01.09.2020, 14:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why. Are. You. So. Focused. On. Deaths?

Have you read nothing about the effects of the illness on various body functions -- and not just in the old?
I'm not suggesting that this is representative of all infections, and it is of course an anecdotal example, but my dad told me the other week that one of his biker group friends (in his late 50's I think) went to Italy at the start of the pandemic, caught COVID and has now been officially diagnosed with a form of PTSD from his experience while suffering and recovering from it. It was apparently that bad.
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  #12071  
Old 01.09.2020, 15:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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  #12072  
Old 01.09.2020, 15:20
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Re: Coronavirus

OK, so starting August 24 at the ETH and Uni Zurich is the mask mandatory, but only when you are on the way to your "destination", for example classroom:

" as of 24 August, wearing facemasks will be mandatory for everyone in all ETH Zurich buildings when moving from one place to another. As soon as you reach your destination – whether it be a workplace, study desk or seat in the cafeteria – you can remove your mask".

Source:
https://ethz.ch/services/en/news-and...istancing.html

Same at the ASVZ (Sport buildings).

Meaning, when the contact is short: wear a mask
When the contact is long in an enclosed room, you can remove the mask!!

Makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me.

It would be like saying:
wear a mask on the street and outside the train, but remove it in the trams and trains.

Who is making these kind decisions???
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  #12073  
Old 01.09.2020, 15:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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OK, so starting August 24 at the ETH and Uni Zurich is the mask mandatory, but only when you are on the way to your "destination", for example classroom:

" as of 24 August, wearing facemasks will be mandatory for everyone in all ETH Zurich buildings when moving from one place to another. As soon as you reach your destination – whether it be a workplace, study desk or seat in the cafeteria – you can remove your mask".

Source:
https://ethz.ch/services/en/news-and...istancing.html

Same at the ASVZ (Sport buildings).

Meaning, when the contact is short: wear a mask
When the contact is long in an enclosed room, you can remove the mask!!

Makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me.

It would be like saying:
wear a mask on the street and outside the train, but remove it in the trams and trains.

Who is making these kind decisions???
Is that true?

Same as the crazy rule in Germany that you need to wear a mask on the way to your table in a restaurant, but then remove it while sitting. When you have to use the bathroom, mask again till your back at your table to continue drinking, singing and shouting. Mad.
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  #12074  
Old 01.09.2020, 15:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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The other cartoon titled "Welcome to heaven with no restrictions, lock-downs or quarantine" was neither funny nor satirical so they didn't publish that one".
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Old 01.09.2020, 15:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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Is that true?

Same as the crazy rule in Germany that you need to wear a mask on the way to your table in a restaurant, but then remove it while sitting. When you have to use the bathroom, mask again till your back at your table to continue drinking, singing and shouting. Mad.
Yes, check the link.
Going to the gym, you have to put the mask until you are in your spinning class, where you can remove it!!!

Yes, sounds similar to what you describe in Germany!
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Old 01.09.2020, 15:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why. Are. You. So. Focused. On. Deaths?

Have you read nothing about the effects of the illness on various body functions -- and not just in the old?
This is because deaths and hospitalisations are the only areas where there is data that can be used for comparisons. All that we have for long term effects of the illness are mostly anecdotal news reports stating that a small percentage of those hospitalised suffering enduring problems having recovered from the virus. What we do know if most people make full recoveries and many are asymptomatic.

This isn't certainly isn't like variola major Smallpox where the majority of people who had the disease were left with pockmarks for the rest of their life.
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Old 01.09.2020, 16:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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Is that true?

Same as the crazy rule in Germany that you need to wear a mask on the way to your table in a restaurant, but then remove it while sitting. When you have to use the bathroom, mask again till your back at your table to continue drinking, singing and shouting. Mad.
Not so crazy.

You know who you are sitting at a table with, so if one gets it the rest can isolate. In Germany they are very strict about getting contact details for this purpose.

Wandering around you usually have no idea who you are in contact with.
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Old 01.09.2020, 16:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is because deaths and hospitalisations are the only areas where there is data that can be used for comparisons. All that we have for long term effects of the illness are mostly anecdotal news reports stating that a small percentage of those hospitalised suffering enduring problems having recovered from the virus. What we do know if most people make full recoveries and many are asymptomatic.

This isn't certainly isn't like variola major Smallpox where the majority of people who had the disease were left with pockmarks for the rest of their life.
Agree on deaths and hospitalizations as more useful indicators than case numbers.

Disagree on the other point. Yes, there are no long term studies of lasting side effects yet (naturally). There are "anecdotes" also of people who never were terribly sick or hospitalized. A number of doctors stating that Covid can have very complex effects on different parts of your system.
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Old 01.09.2020, 16:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Not so crazy.

You know who you are sitting at a table with, so if one gets it the rest can isolate. In Germany they are very strict about getting contact details for this purpose.

Wandering around you usually have no idea who you are in contact with.
Come on. Every respectable doctor/virologist says that infection will always be a function of time and dose of exposure to virus. Walking by someone will have close to zero risk.
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Old 01.09.2020, 16:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Come on. Every respectable doctor/virologist says that infection will always be a function of time and dose of exposure to virus. Walking by someone will have close to zero risk.
Depends... The table published in the BMJ says:

Not wearing a mask - outdoors - silent - low occupancy = Low risk
Not wearing a mask - outdoors - silent - high occupancy = Medium risk
Not wearing a mask - outdoors - speaking - low occupancy = Medium risk
Not wearing a mask - outdoors - speaking - high occupancy = High risk
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