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Old 03.09.2020, 15:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think if you sampled a random group of people anywhere, you'd find a lot more know of someone (or several friends) who suffered greatly (or took their own lives/relapsed) due to covid anxiety/lockdowns than covid itself or long-term effects of having had covid. Didn't someone even say something like that in this thread?
People have had their surgeries postponed and died, too.


So diabetic/overweight people who caught Covid-19 died? Others have long-term effects of the disease? Was it the diabetes or the virus? The virus probably accelerated their decline. What about people who are not diabetic or even pre-diabetic? Depressed/immuno-compromised? Should we all live in fear because a lot of people are unhealthy/overweight?

People need to take their health into their own hands. I wish you doomers good luck depending on others in life to protect you from... well, anything. Because that's what masks do. You're angry at others for being skeptical over a rule that is meant to protect YOU. It's all about you. As is apparent in your virtue-signalling/insulting.
If you're really so scared to catch this thing and don't trust in your ability to recover, don't leave your house.

This is all so in line with what I know of Swiss mentality: sheltered, privileged people who get carried away into anxiety very easily and don't recognize that for a lot of people, lockdown equals: domestic violence, child abuse, suicidal ideation, unemployment etc...
Just because you don't see it or haven't gone through it doesn't mean it's not there.
So if you are poor that is your fault, if you are sick that is your fault, if you die from Covid that is your fault. That is arrogance.
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  #12182  
Old 03.09.2020, 15:35
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Re: Coronavirus

Opposing points of view are nothing new, and are of course necessary and beneficial in modern "democracy". What isn't helpful are the obnoxious voices of those whose only care is justifying their own initial skepticism of a time when a decision was made in crisis, thankfully disregarding the empty cries of "do nothing" when thousands of people were dying and catastrophe was imminent. They're the ones with 20/20 hindsight now that, catastrophe averted, want nothing more than to say "told you so", even as they and everyone else were kept safe by the very thing they casually flouted.
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  #12183  
Old 03.09.2020, 15:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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So diabetic/overweight people who caught Covid-19 died? Others have long-term effects of the disease? Was it the diabetes or the virus? The virus probably accelerated their decline. What about people who are not diabetic or even pre-diabetic? Depressed/immuno-compromised? Should we all live in fear because a lot of people are unhealthy/overweight?
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  #12184  
Old 03.09.2020, 15:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Opposing points of view are nothing new, and are of course necessary and beneficial in modern "democracy". What isn't helpful are the obnoxious voices of those whose only care is justifying their own initial skepticism of a time when a decision was made in crisis, thankfully disregarding the empty cries of "do nothing" when thousands of people were dying and catastrophe was imminent. They're the ones with 20/20 hindsight now that, catastrophe averted, want nothing more than to say "told you so", even as they and everyone else were kept safe by the very thing they casually flouted.
I think its fair to criticize hindsight analysis.

I do however think its fair to say that some the measures were clear obvious overreactions at the time.

I'm not talking about comparatively moderate measures like the shutting of shops. Although that was an overreaction we only know that with hindsight analysis. If you aren't sure about efficacy stay on the safe side. That's not unreasonable.

I'm talking about stuff that was just obvious nonsense like Spain's locking children inside without the ability even to do exercise, the compulsory wearing of masks everywhere outside in some places, England's once a day exercise rule (and things like the sunbathing ban - even when you were nowhere near anyone else).

Notably Spain's and England's performance has been particularly poor despite these draconian measures. If you treat people like idiots and children that's how they will behave. I for one will find it very hard to vote for Boris Johnson after the pig's ear he has made of this crisis.

Switzerland did very well, and was calm and measured and protected its citizens without turning into a police state. Thank you Switzerland.
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Old 03.09.2020, 15:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm talking about stuff that was just obvious nonsense like Spain's locking children inside without the ability even to do exercise, the compulsory wearing of masks everywhere outside in some places, England's once a day exercise rule (and things like the sunbathing ban - even when you were nowhere near anyone else).
Tell me more about the "obvious nonsense" of the mask mandate, which you see as more heinous than ordering shops to close. Why is it nonsense and who does it hurt?

"I really don't care, do U?"
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Old 03.09.2020, 15:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tell me more about the "obvious nonsense" of the mask mandate, which you see as more heinous than ordering shops to close. Why is it nonsense and who does it hurt?

"I really don't care, do U?"
I said masks outside specifically.

That is nonsense in my opinion because if you are in an uncrowned outside area, the risk of infection is obviously going to be de minimis. If you want to put the restriction on a busy high Street - that's pretty conservative but obviously I can sympathise. But lots of us don't live in urban areas and enjoy exercise outdoors nowhere near anyone. I'm glad Switzerland didn't make me put on a mask where it would be of zero benefit to do so.

I work on the principle that if I can help others I will do so. I wear masks at all times when required to do so, like moving through my office, on the train and in the shops, and properly too, not with my nose showing. Because i'm not totally selfish. I recognize that liberty unfortunately has to be reduced at times of crisis. But I don't have much sympathy with rules for the sake of rules when liberty is already reduced.

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Old 03.09.2020, 16:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tell me more about the "obvious nonsense" of the mask mandate, which you see as more heinous than ordering shops to close. Why is it nonsense and who does it hurt?

"I really don't care, do U?"

Of course the rules make sense and I understand you are surprised. For example if you need to wear a mask and go sunbathing, you would get a weird kind of bikini line. For that reason, sunbathing cannot be allowed.
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  #12188  
Old 03.09.2020, 16:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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That's one of the dumbest analogies I've ever seen. You're comparing a virus with extremely diverse degrees of potential for injury depending on the host to a terrorist attack...
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  #12189  
Old 03.09.2020, 16:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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So diabetic/overweight people who caught Covid-19 died? Others have long-term effects of the disease? Was it the diabetes or the virus? The virus probably accelerated their decline. What about people who are not diabetic or even pre-diabetic? Depressed/immuno-compromised? Should we all live in fear because a lot of people are unhealthy/overweight?
You're conflating diabetes in general with being overweight, which isn't a cause of Type 1 diabetes. Personally know 5 Type 1 diabetics who were all advised to shield by their consultants, ranging from 12 - 62yrs old. The parents of the 12yr old were advised to begin shielding her, by her consultants, 3 weeks before lockdown began in the UK.

My partner is immuno-compromised due to chronic vitamin D deficiency. He's perfectly healthy in every other respect and keeps up a daily exercise regime of at least 1 hour solid workout.

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This is all so in line with what I know of Swiss mentality: sheltered, privileged people who get carried away into anxiety very easily and don't recognize that for a lot of people, lockdown equals: domestic violence, child abuse, suicidal ideation, unemployment etc...
Just because you don't see it or haven't gone through it doesn't mean it's not there.
1. I worked in business travel. The vast majority of my friends who are former colleagues, have been made redundant. Heard about 7 more being made redundant this morning, bringing the total up to 9 so far this week alone and that's just amongst my mates.

2. Personally know of 4 marriages which ended when lockdown became a likelihood in the UK because they couldn't face the prospect of being in lockdown together.

3. You have a remarkably poor opinion of Swiss people.
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Old 03.09.2020, 16:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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Of course the rules make sense and I understand you are surprised. For example if you need to wear a mask and go sunbathing, you would get a weird kind of bikini line. For that reason, sunbathing cannot be allowed.
Living dangerously - sarcasm on the Englishforum, especially on the covid thread!
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  #12191  
Old 03.09.2020, 16:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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That's one of the dumbest analogies I've ever seen. You're comparing a virus with extremely diverse degrees of potential for injury depending on the host to a terrorist attack...
You get an F for reading comprehension.

No, I (or the meme maker) am not comparing a virus to a terrorist attack. I am comparing the downplaying of death resulting from a virus to the absolute acceptance of deaths from a terrorist attack. We hear all the time, these days, that "those people were going to die anyway"; it is a perverse viewpoint that is never held in any other situation. Why execute murderers in the US? They're going to die anyway. Why treat cancer sufferers? They'll die anyway. Speaking this way about COVID-19 casualties shows extraordinary lack of compassion and understanding. They are the words of cowardly apologists.
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Old 03.09.2020, 18:46
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Re: Coronavirus

"It was always highly likely to be a class effect, there's nothing really to distinguish the activity of dexamethosone to numerous other glucorticoidsteroids."

Unfortunately Dexamethosone is notorious for causing blood sugar issues and leaving patients with Type 2 diabetes, so I feel sorry for anyone who is given this. It's routinely given to cancer patients who are having chemotherapy, I had it in high doses for 3 days at a time before each chemo cycle. My blood sugar levels went up to such dangerous levels the chemo had to be suspended until my Consultant had confirmation what was causing it. Referred to a Type 2 clinic where the specialist looked at my file and immediately said the problems were down to Dexamethesone, and 25% of patients on it are left Type 2 if their blood sugar hasn't gone back to normal 6 weeks after finishing with it. I've been borderline for 13 years now.

It also causes insomnia and makes you feel wound up like you're on speed, I couldn't sit down or relax and would often end up doing the ironing at 4 in the morning listening to really loud music by The Clash or The Stranglers with headphones on - if I tried to play something quiet or relaxing my brain would override it. If it wasn't that I'd be dancing like a maniac in my kitchen to disco. I'd be awake for the entire 3 days I was on it. Even worse is the crash you feel coming on 2 days after you finish each course, you really can't get out of bed. At the finish of treatment I had to be weaned off it by cutting down the dose gradually.
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Old 03.09.2020, 19:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Insulting them?! Have you seen some of the names I've been called? Scaredy cat barely even registers on the gentle ribbing by comparison!
C'mon Tony, I think you know very well there are multiple passive-aggressive ways to insult or put down someone else without saying a single "offensive" word.

Anyways, you're entitled to your opinions as much as the rest of other people are entitled to theirs.
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Old 03.09.2020, 20:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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You get an F for reading comprehension.
No, your analogy is poor. Nobody is under lockdown because of a potential terrorist attack, and yet, there are billions of people actually suffering, losing their jobs, their minds, children not being able to go to school, develop social skills, etc. etc. etc. because of a POTENTIAL and LIMITED threat to someone who is vulnerable. Let the vulnerable stay at home and let everyone else out. Simples.
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Old 03.09.2020, 21:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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No, your analogy is poor. Nobody is under lockdown because of a potential terrorist attack, and yet, there are billions of people actually suffering, losing their jobs, their minds, children not being able to go to school, develop social skills, etc. etc. etc. because of a POTENTIAL and LIMITED threat to someone who is vulnerable. Let the vulnerable stay at home and let everyone else out. Simples.
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About a third of student athletes in the Big 10 conference with coronavirus who were given cardiac MRI’s had heart inflammation known as myocarditis, according to a Penn State doctor, raising concerns about potentially dangerous complications from the virus even among young athletes.
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So you propse all young athletes should stay at home?
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Old 03.09.2020, 22:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think its fair to criticize hindsight analysis.

I do however think its fair to say that some the measures were clear obvious overreactions at the time.

I'm not talking about comparatively moderate measures like the shutting of shops. Although that was an overreaction we only know that with hindsight analysis. If you aren't sure about efficacy stay on the safe side. That's not unreasonable.

I'm talking about stuff that was just obvious nonsense like Spain's locking children inside without the ability even to do exercise, the compulsory wearing of masks everywhere outside in some places, England's once a day exercise rule (and things like the sunbathing ban - even when you were nowhere near anyone else).

Notably Spain's and England's performance has been particularly poor despite these draconian measures. If you treat people like idiots and children that's how they will behave. I for one will find it very hard to vote for Boris Johnson after the pig's ear he has made of this crisis.

Switzerland did very well, and was calm and measured and protected its citizens without turning into a police state. Thank you Switzerland.
It would be good to understand why there is so much push back against mask wearing.

Governments make rules all the time to protect us from ourselves.

How is mask wearing worse than cycle helmets, motor bike helmets, car seatbelts, or rules against taking drugs, drunken driving, smoking in restaurants &&&&
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Old 03.09.2020, 23:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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it would be good to understand why there is so much push back against mask wearing.

Governments make rules all the time to protect us from ourselves.

How is mask wearing worse than cycle helmets, motor bike helmets, car seatbelts, or rules against taking drugs, drunken driving, smoking in restaurants &&&&
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Old 04.09.2020, 00:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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No, your analogy is poor. Nobody is under lockdown because of a potential terrorist attack, and yet, there are billions of people actually suffering, losing their jobs, their minds, children not being able to go to school, develop social skills, etc. etc. etc. because of a POTENTIAL and LIMITED threat to someone who is vulnerable. Let the vulnerable stay at home and let everyone else out. Simples.
OK! Sounds good to me! Oh, I just noticed, there is no lockdown, so what are you raging against? And apparently Switzerland did the right thing anyway when it did have one—so I'm told here.

But I'm still going to look after myself and others by wearing a mask. At least until more is known about those pesky long-term effects, or even about the mechanism of action of the virus.

This is a slightly technical read, but the latest computer modelling suggests that it's bradykinin storms (not cytokine, as previously thought) in the body that kills those infected with SARS-CoV-2.

One thing to take away from the linked article is that it is pretty foolhardy to wear a mask and casually not cover the nose. It appears that the nose could be the main point of entry for the virus to the body. And the way the virus operates in the human body may be much more devious and insidious than we thought. But it seems that humble vitamin D (not C, as one of our tinfoil hat-wearers previously suggested) may have some efficacy in treating COVID-19.

A couple of other take-aways: up to half of all patients hospitalized with COVID-19 suffer significant, often severe, neurological effects, including dizziness, seizures, delirium, and stroke. The overall cumulative COVID-19 hospitalization rate in the US (I can't immediately find global data) is 156.8 per 100,000 population. Interestingly, that overall rate is also almost exactly the hospitalization rate for the 18–49 years age group. In total, about 52,000 Americans have been hospitalized with COVID-19 and about 25,000 have suffered severe neurological effects which (for those who haven't died) may be ongoing for the rest of their lives. Time will tell.

So if you want to lock up the elderly and the many other groups at risk, go ahead. But wear a mask when you're away from home to protect others. Death is not the only undesirable consequence of COVID-19.
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Old 04.09.2020, 00:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think if you sampled a random group of people anywhere, you'd find a lot more know of someone (or several friends) who suffered greatly (or took their own lives/relapsed) due to covid anxiety/lockdowns than covid itself or long-term effects of having had covid. Didn't someone even say something like that in this thread?
People have had their surgeries postponed and died, too.


So diabetic/overweight people who caught Covid-19 died? Others have long-term effects of the disease? Was it the diabetes or the virus? The virus probably accelerated their decline. What about people who are not diabetic or even pre-diabetic? Depressed/immuno-compromised? Should we all live in fear because a lot of people are unhealthy/overweight?

People need to take their health into their own hands. I wish you doomers good luck depending on others in life to protect you from... well, anything. Because that's what masks do. You're angry at others for being skeptical over a rule that is meant to protect YOU. It's all about you. As is apparent in your virtue-signalling/insulting.
If you're really so scared to catch this thing and don't trust in your ability to recover, don't leave your house.

This is all so in line with what I know of Swiss mentality: sheltered, privileged people who get carried away into anxiety very easily and don't recognize that for a lot of people, lockdown equals: domestic violence, child abuse, suicidal ideation, unemployment etc...
Just because you don't see it or haven't gone through it doesn't mean it's not there.
There was a higher suicide rate during the SARS epidemic where there was no lockdown.
Research indicated that this increase in suicides can be attributed to fears of contracting the illness, fears of being a burden to the family, general anxiety, social isolation and psychological distress.

It is simplistic for people to claim increased suicides are solely due to the lockdown; it is actually much more complex.
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Old 04.09.2020, 00:29
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Re: Coronavirus

Some folks here won't like this, but just a reminder: correlation is not causation. There are cold hard facts out there, documented by people with much higher degrees than any of us on this piddly forum. Science isn't just a hobby. Show how smart you are and listen to the experts, not your favorite trash tabloid.
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