Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #12201  
Old 04.09.2020, 00:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,876
Groaned at 63 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 4,068 Times in 1,900 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
It would be good to understand why there is so much push back against mask wearing.

Governments make rules all the time to protect us from ourselves.

How is mask wearing worse than cycle helmets, motor bike helmets, car seatbelts, or rules against taking drugs, drunken driving, smoking in restaurants &&&&
I've not pushed back against a single Swiss policy. If anything I would like to see mask wearing in shops here made compulsory (as you say why not). They are where I work (Basel), but not where I live (Aargau). It's hardly an inconvenience to put a mask on for 5 minutes.

But wearing a mask while going hiking in the fricktal hills would be like wearing a cycle helmet while I'm in bed, uncomfortable and pointless. Is that really controversial? Wouldn't you agree? Thankfully the rules here will be proportionate, sensible and well followed. At least by all but the youngest people.

The moment when the law no longer makes sense is when the population trust in governance goes down. Just look at Boris in the uk . Even natural supporters think he's a joke. For one I don't really care what the law says, but rather whether I'm treating those around me with consideration and respect. I wear masks in Aargau shops when it's not compulsory but I would have disobeyed the "once daily exercise and no sunbathing" rule in England, because I'm an intelligent human being not a sheep.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 04.09.2020 at 01:08.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #12202  
Old 04.09.2020, 08:33
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 164 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 2,920 Times in 1,062 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
what are you raging against?
You have a massive problem with reading comprehension where did you see rage in any of my posts? Please, don't project your feelings on other. Relax, have a drink, it's sunny out there.

oh, an btw, I EXPLICITLY stated that I wear a mask, so your whole post could safely be deleted as you, again, failed to read with actually understanding
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #12203  
Old 04.09.2020, 09:06
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
You have a massive problem with reading comprehension where did you see rage in any of my posts? Please, don't project your feelings on other. Relax, have a drink, it's sunny out there.

oh, an btw, I EXPLICITLY stated that I wear a mask, so your whole post could safely be deleted as you, again, failed to read with actually understanding
Oh, sorry, my mistake. I thought your ALL CAPS SHOUTING, concern for the suffering of "billions of people losing their minds" (among other things), and agitated, emphatic repetition of "etc." was a sign of anger, but apparently it's more a manifestation of my poor reading skills.

Quote:
View Post
No, your analogy is poor. Nobody is under lockdown because of a potential terrorist attack, and yet, there are billions of people actually suffering, losing their jobs, their minds, children not being able to go to school, develop social skills, etc. etc. etc. because of a POTENTIAL and LIMITED threat to someone who is vulnerable. Let the vulnerable stay at home and let everyone else out. Simples.
Where did you explicitly state that you always wear a mask to protect others? Apologies, I must be getting old, sometimes I forget exactly who said what over the course of tens of thousands of posts across several threads.
Reply With Quote
  #12204  
Old 04.09.2020, 09:17
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 164 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 2,920 Times in 1,062 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Where did you explicitly state that you always wear a mask to protect others? Apologies, I must be getting old, sometimes I forget exactly who said what over the course of tens of thousands of posts across several threads.
For some odd reason you even "liked" it

Quote:
View Post
I have this habit when I don't know something I turn to a trusted authority for guidance. Re masks, I cannot form a scientific opinion as I am no expert in this particular field. I prefer to follow the guidance of the Swiss government, which I trusted before, but I trust now even more as I think they have and are handling the situation in the best way possible.

Wear a f$%kn mask. at least not to annoy everyone else on the tram.

edit: sorry, this was supposed to be in the "mask dodgers" thread, I must have taken de-caf this morning
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #12205  
Old 04.09.2020, 09:19
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
For some odd reason you even "liked" it
Ah, 150+ posts ago. How quickly we forget.

I thanked your post for its decaf reference.
Reply With Quote
  #12206  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:14
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,095
Groaned at 510 Times in 433 Posts
Thanked 19,985 Times in 10,539 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Some folks here won't like this, but just a reminder: correlation is not causation. There are cold hard facts out there, documented by people with much higher degrees than any of us on this piddly forum. Science isn't just a hobby. Show how smart you are and listen to the experts, not your favorite trash tabloid.
"documented by people with much higher degrees than any of us on this piddly forum." a fact free claim.....
Reply With Quote
  #12207  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:22
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,656
Groaned at 584 Times in 334 Posts
Thanked 4,095 Times in 1,716 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Notably Spain's and England's performance has been particularly poor despite these draconian measures. If you treat people like idiots and children that's how they will behave. I for one will find it very hard to vote for Boris Johnson after the pig's ear he has made of this crisis.
That's true, if anyone "lent" Boris Johnson their vote, it's time to take it back. I give him 18 months max before the men in grey suits take him away. I'm sure he'll have managed to make a pig's ear of Brexit by then too. Less Churchillian more Charlie Chaplin.
Reply With Quote
  #12208  
Old 04.09.2020, 10:48
robogobo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Horw (LU)
Posts: 504
Groaned at 76 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 414 Times in 216 Posts
robogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
because I'm an intelligent human being not a sheep.
Surely you must realize by now, that most of the world is not very intelligent, especially in groups, especially when it comes to issues where fear is a factor. So it’s necessary to have clear, concise, often overstated rules for the masses. If you say, “once per day”, people are at least aware that there’s a reason to limit their exposure.

There’s a sweet spot of pressure that you have to hit. Too little pressure breeds complacency. Too much, rebellion. This is what the people who are making the rules are thinking about, hitting the sweet spot.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #12209  
Old 04.09.2020, 11:40
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 3,399
Groaned at 40 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 4,580 Times in 2,110 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Some folks here won't like this, but just a reminder: correlation is not causation. There are cold hard facts out there, documented by people with much higher degrees than any of us on this piddly forum. Science isn't just a hobby. Show how smart you are and listen to the experts, not your favorite trash tabloid.
There are two major problems with listening to the experts. The first one is we the flock cannot distinguish expertise from quackery. All those people drinking chlorine dioxide or giving it to their kids are listening to the experts.

The second problem is even Nobel Prize winners recommend vitamin C for cancer treatment.....I better quote Solzhenitsyn:

Quote:
If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.
Substitute good by expertise and evil by quackery and this is our world. What matter is the truth, not the people with the higher degrees because the line is inside us
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #12210  
Old 04.09.2020, 12:20
robogobo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Horw (LU)
Posts: 504
Groaned at 76 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 414 Times in 216 Posts
robogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
"documented by people with much higher degrees than any of us on this piddly forum." a fact free claim.....
Quote:
View Post
There are two major problems with listening to the experts. The first one is we the flock cannot distinguish expertise from quackery. All those people drinking chlorine dioxide or giving it to their kids are listening to the experts.

The second problem is even Nobel Prize winners recommend vitamin C for cancer treatment.....I better quote Solzhenitsyn:

Substitute good by expertise and evil by quackery and this is our world. What matter is the truth, not the people with the higher degrees because the line is inside us
Careful. Both of these reactions feed the lions in the "alternative facts" circus. Look a little closer and see the difference between one "expert" who gets the tabloid headline (or Trump's Tweets) vs tried and true experts of University caliber, with real degrees, qualifications, peer reviews and track records clean of malpractice. The quacks are easy to spot if you look beneath the surface.

Axa, that last line could be read by Morgan Freeman and give us chills, but I'm not sure exactly what it means, if not a complete neutralization of actual fact. Truth is a pretty elusive thing these days. Too many people have decided that the "line inside us" is the only thing that matters, facts be damned.
__________________

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank robogobo for this useful post:
  #12211  
Old 04.09.2020, 13:16
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Geneva
Posts: 35
Groaned at 27 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 107 Times in 28 Posts
sftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Careful. Both of these reactions feed the lions in the "alternative facts" circus. Look a little closer and see the difference between one "expert" who gets the tabloid headline (or Trump's Tweets) vs tried and true experts of University caliber, with real degrees, qualifications, peer reviews and track records clean of malpractice. The quacks are easy to spot if you look beneath the surface.

Axa, that last line could be read by Morgan Freeman and give us chills, but I'm not sure exactly what it means, if not a complete neutralization of actual fact. Truth is a pretty elusive thing these days. Too many people have decided that the "line inside us" is the only thing that matters, facts be damned.
Appeal to authority.

What makes you think that someone holding a university degree is ultimately fit to be considered an expert, compared to, say, someone who struggled to navigate the university life/didn't want to go there but gathered real life skills instead by following a different path?

The medical/pharmaceutical system is so corrupt anyway that this argument doesn't hold true. I've lost count of the many mediocre/insensitive/unethical doctors, medical practitioners, mental health professionals that I've had over the years... it has definitely injured my ability to trust figures of 'authority' of any kind. If that's what it means to be a contrarian, then so be it.
Reply With Quote
  #12212  
Old 04.09.2020, 13:45
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wallisellen, Zurich,
Posts: 23
Groaned at 29 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 15 Posts
Pandalicious has slipped a little
Re: Coronavirus

The CDC states that only 9200 people in the US have died directly from COVID, i.e. without any serious underlying health problems.

9200 deaths FROM Covid in the US, yet 64'000 die each year just from regular flu.

Thats your "pandemic", now continue to crash your economies, take people's freedoms, and give your governments more power and control.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pandalicious for this useful post:
  #12213  
Old 04.09.2020, 13:50
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,095
Groaned at 510 Times in 433 Posts
Thanked 19,985 Times in 10,539 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
There are two major problems with listening to the experts. The first one is we the flock cannot distinguish expertise from quackery. All those people drinking chlorine dioxide or giving it to their kids are listening to the experts.

The second problem is even Nobel Prize winners recommend vitamin C for cancer treatment.....I better quote Solzhenitsyn:

Substitute good by expertise and evil by quackery and this is our world. What matter is the truth, not the people with the higher degrees because the line is inside us
"The second problem is even Nobel Prize winners recommend vitamin C for cancer treatment" From the US Government National Cancer Institute "In our view, the implementation of this treatment paradigm [vitamin C] could provide benefit to many cancer patients."

Source

So what is your point?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #12214  
Old 04.09.2020, 13:52
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 4,103
Groaned at 122 Times in 106 Posts
Thanked 10,998 Times in 4,828 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

For anyone who's interested, a couple of interesting pages documenting the covid responses in individual countries:

National responses - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...ID-19_pandemic

Europe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...andemic#Europe

Switzerland - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-...nment_response
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #12215  
Old 04.09.2020, 13:54
robogobo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Horw (LU)
Posts: 504
Groaned at 76 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 414 Times in 216 Posts
robogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Appeal to authority.

What makes you think that someone holding a university degree is ultimately fit to be considered an expert, compared to, say, someone who struggled to navigate the university life/didn't want to go there but gathered real life skills instead by following a different path?

The medical/pharmaceutical system is so corrupt anyway that this argument doesn't hold true. I've lost count of the many mediocre/insensitive/unethical doctors, medical practitioners, mental health professionals that I've had over the years... it has definitely injured my ability to trust figures of 'authority' of any kind. If that's what it means to be a contrarian, then so be it.
No, distrusting doctors is not contrarian. Ugh, here we go again.

What is contrarian is taking a list of given criteria, picking out the one that you disagree with, and claiming you've discredited the whole argument, acting snide and proud of yourself in the process. So yeah, you did that.

Did I say having a University degree was the only thing that makes one a trusted expert? No, I did not. So, go ahead and read it again. I'll wait.

BTW the "Appeal th Authority" fallacy doesn't mean what you think it means. It doesn't mean there are no facts as your Republican friends might say. We do have *actual* authorities on a great many subjects. The fallacy is an appeal to unsusstantiated, irrelevant, out of context authority, without backing or challenge by peers. I'm sure you knew that. But you went ahead and appealed to the authority who answered your Google search for logical fallacies.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #12216  
Old 04.09.2020, 13:57
robogobo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Horw (LU)
Posts: 504
Groaned at 76 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 414 Times in 216 Posts
robogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
"The second problem is even Nobel Prize winners recommend vitamin C for cancer treatment" From the US Government National Cancer Institute "In our view, the implementation of this treatment paradigm [vitamin C] could provide benefit to many cancer patients."

Source

So what is your point?
Someone repeated the logical fallacy meme so many times that the intelligent masses took it to mean that anyone with the credentials and experience to speak on a subject, who did actual research with strict adherence to the scientific method should no longer be trusted.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank robogobo for this useful post:
  #12217  
Old 04.09.2020, 14:14
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The CDC states that only 9200 people in the US have died directly from COVID, i.e. without any serious underlying health problems.

9200 deaths FROM Covid in the US, yet 64'000 die each year just from regular flu.

Thats your "pandemic", now continue to crash your economies, take people's freedoms, and give your governments more power and control.
And one can imagine out of those 9200 many had underlying health problems that were not treated or not known. Sad really for the people, but even sadder for the hundreds of millions that are held hostage by a fancy flu. Hopefully we'll learn from these mistakes.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank V__ for this useful post:
The following 3 users groan at V__ for this post:
  #12218  
Old 04.09.2020, 14:17
Blueangel's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 4,103
Groaned at 122 Times in 106 Posts
Thanked 10,998 Times in 4,828 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The CDC states that only 9200 people in the US have died directly from COVID, i.e. without any serious underlying health problems.
And again...

Few death certificates are issued with a single cause of death. My mum's had 2 primary and 3 or 4 secondary. My nan was 85 when she had a bad dose of flu that became pneumonia. She recovered from that in so much as she no longer had pneumonia or flu, but because of her age, she didn't regain her strength, so the only cause of death recorded was 'old age'.

The thing with covid, as with many other life shortening/threatening conditions, is that they're the root cause of other factors such as renal failure, septicemia, etc. Where those factors are present, they're almost always cited as the primary causes of death. As an example, my mum's death cert showed the following:
Primary: renal failure, septicemia
Secondary: Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, diabetes, Clostridioides difficile.

The pneumonia which was the cause of her intially being admitted to hospital wasn't recorded on her death cert. because she'd recovered from that, however, as all hospitalised contagious diseases are recorded nationally in the UK, it was recorded as a case.

When secondary factors are recorded on a death cert., it indicates that either these were a factor which caused the primaries, or because they were present, the patient was unable to recover from the primaries. In my mum's case, C-Diff was the root cause of both primaries, but because of the Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and diabetes, her immunity was reduced to the point where her body was unable to fight back.
As for the life shortening secondaries, her diabetes was completely under control and the life expectancy given for her Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma was 5-15+yrs, most definitely not the 5mths which she actually had.

Because covid isn't recorded as the single primary cause of death does NOT mean that it isn't a significant contributary factor worthy of being recorded as a joint primary or secondary cause on a death cert. In a similar manner, 'car crash' will never be recorded as the single cause of death because it's the injuries resulting from that event which are the actual cause.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #12219  
Old 04.09.2020, 14:26
robogobo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Horw (LU)
Posts: 504
Groaned at 76 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 414 Times in 216 Posts
robogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The CDC states that only 9200 people in the US have died directly from COVID, i.e. without any serious underlying health problems.

9200 deaths FROM Covid in the US, yet 64'000 die each year just from regular flu.

Thats your "pandemic", now continue to crash your economies, take people's freedoms, and give your governments more power and control.
Ugh, here we go again. It's really pointless this discussion because you people just go ahead and cherry pick the numbers again and again.

If you actually did an intelligent comparison, you'd get the true picture. But you're not going to, and you won't listen to anyone who does. Either that or you really just aren't too bright.
Reply With Quote
  #12220  
Old 04.09.2020, 14:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,462
Groaned at 299 Times in 228 Posts
Thanked 19,487 Times in 6,783 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The CDC states that only 9200 people in the US have died directly from COVID, i.e. without any serious underlying health problems.

9200 deaths FROM Covid in the US, yet 64'000 die each year just from regular flu.

Thats your "pandemic", now continue to crash your economies, take people's freedoms, and give your governments more power and control.
But how many of these 64000 would have had underlying health problems?
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 17 (1 members and 16 guests)
marton
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coronavirus Jokes makeabigwish Daily life 256 Yesterday 21:06
Coronavirus closed janvier Forum support 18 01.11.2020 13:12
Paid holidays and coronavirus Curtiss Employment 2 20.04.2020 09:22
Coronavirus scammers are out there - be warned Medea Fleecestealer Daily life 9 18.04.2020 18:53
Leaving Switzerland for UK during coronavirus barkingtreewolf Leaving Switzerland 19 11.04.2020 11:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0