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Old 07.09.2020, 13:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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How about you stop making sensationalist posts based on an article in a crappy newspaper?

You call it frightening without any basis for that other than what Professor Gupta said and start coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories without any evidence for it whatsoever.
How about you do a bit more research (from credible sources) and come back to us when you have a bit more evidence.

For what itís worth my husband is a reviewer, worked for many years with a renowned Nobel prize winning researcher as well as many other renowned scientists and has many many publications to his name.
I have proofread and corrected many articles for people prior to submission.
I know very well how the system works and if she canít get her article published in a prestigious journal then there is a very good reason for it. Maybe there isnít enough data, maybe the methodology was flawed....who knows? Without access to all the information it is pointless to draw conclusions.
I find it hard to believe your claim to be so close to scientific publication and be so unaware of editorial bias. I take what the likes of what Professor Gupta says seriously because she has had so many papers published and is aware of what is normal/required and what is not.

Even if you don't take her word for it, there are other scientists reporting similar experiences. Professor Gabriela Gomes has also said that her paper was rejected for pre-print because "Given the implications for public health, it is appropriate to hold claims around the herd immunity threshold to a very high evidence bar, as these would be interpreted to justify relaxation of interventions, potentially placing people at risk.".

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....27.20081893v3
https://twitter.com/mgmgomes1/status...62358962937857

Now compare and contrast with the paper below that WAS published in the Lancet however its findings (basically predicting a large wave of infections and deaths if there isnít an in contact tracing and isolation positive cases). have yet to be seen anywhere in the world. Like Professor Neil Ferguson's paper, it's a nonsense, yet is published (albeit in online first form) anyhow.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...250-9/fulltext
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  #12322  
Old 07.09.2020, 13:12
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Re: Coronavirus

TonyClifton, are you aware how much you consistently contradict yourself, swap positions, prove yourself wrong with your own citations and just generally stir up a cloud of dust with no clear reasoning? If you're not aware, we can just chalk it up to brain issues and ignore you like a yappy little puppy. Otherwise, if you are aware, please just stop. It's not amusing anymore. And it makes you look really bad, like you have nothing better to do with your time but seeking negative attention. Sincerely.
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  #12323  
Old 07.09.2020, 13:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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I find it hard to believe your claim to be so close to scientific publication and be so unaware of editorial bias. I take what the likes of what Professor Gupta says seriously because she has had so many papers published and is aware of what is normal/required and what is not.

Even if you don't take her word for it, there are other scientists reporting similar experiences. Professor Gabriela Gomes has also said that her paper was rejected for pre-print because "Given the implications for public health, it is appropriate to hold claims around the herd immunity threshold to a very high evidence bar, as these would be interpreted to justify relaxation of interventions, potentially placing people at risk.".

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....27.20081893v3
https://twitter.com/mgmgomes1/status...62358962937857

Now compare and contrast with the paper below that WAS published in the Lancet however its findings (basically predicting a large wave of infections and deaths if there isnít an in contact tracing and isolation positive cases). have yet to be seen anywhere in the world. Like Professor Neil Ferguson's paper, it's a nonsense, yet is published (albeit in online first form) anyhow.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...250-9/fulltext
It's quite obvious you've not been anywhere near scientific publishing. People get papers rejected all the time. Prof. Gupta will have had many many papers rejected before this one, and I call tell you every time it was rejected the she was NOT happy about and largely disagreed with being rejected. She wouldn't have submitted it otherwise.

But that's the peer review process and trying to bully the journals into submission via the press like this won't do anything to help in the future.
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  #12324  
Old 07.09.2020, 13:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's quite obvious you've not been anywhere near scientific publishing. People get papers rejected all the time. Prof. Gupta will have had many many papers rejected before this one, and I call tell you every time it was rejected the she was NOT happy about and largely disagreed with being rejected. She wouldn't have submitted it otherwise.

But that's the peer review process and trying to bully the journals into submission via the press like this won't do anything to help in the future.
You're speculating here.

If anyone is in any doubt as to editorial bias of scientific jounals, here an editor freely admits it!

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The relevant Science editors discussed whether it was in the public interest to publish the findings. Like all Science papers, the article received support from members of our Board of Reviewing Editors and experts who provided peer review. Nevertheless, we were concerned that forces that want to downplay the severity of the pandemic as well as the need for social distancing would seize on the results to suggest that the situation was less urgent. We decided that the benefit of providing the model to the scientific community was worthwhile. The effects of many variabilities on infection spread, including age, genetics, and past exposures to other vaccines and viruses, are beginning to emerge for SARS-CoV-2. Together with behavior, these factors will affect the degree to which different populations are susceptible to infection, and understanding population heterogeneity may guide vaccination strategies.
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/editors...herd-immunity/
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  #12325  
Old 07.09.2020, 13:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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That's right, I left it out because as a qualifier it doesn't matter for how long. Time is a MAJOR criteria for risk reduction, so any amount of time is a great risk reducer. Mask wearing does, in make it less likely to catch or transmit. You claim that's delusional, and then you try to qualify it.

Another litmus test for intelligence. You fail a lot of those.
I'm not talking about the amount of time worn wearing a mask. In fact, the longer you use it, the more likely it is to be contaminated.

The only way what you said can be considered remotely influential on global spread is if a significant portion of the population wore an uncontaminated mask most of the time, properly, everywhere (especially at home). Which is not the case at all. I see way more naked faces than masked ones and people are probably spending time with their friends/relatives unmasked, rendering general public mask-wearing rules pretty irrelevant. Mildly protective in the short term, but very negligible in your long term individual risk assessment of catching the virus. Unless you're a recluse or you force the people you spend the most time with to wear one at all times.
That's what I meant by 'for how long' - you will eventually run into/talk to unmasked citizens/relatives and be exposed to it.
And masks protect others (if worn and changed properly, which is seldom), not you... so you're at the constant mercy of other people's discipline... that's why it's such a convenient ploy for you people to satisfy that shaming/virtue-signalling fetish that you have against people who don't want to make you feel safe all the time. Whereas no one is preventing you from exercising physical distancing (or even wearing an ffp2 mask) and I'll be the first one to say that (fresh) masks should be worn when proximity is unavoidable as I have claimed in a previous post. Wasting masks by wearing them in areas with poor population density is unfortunate. Just because they make you feel more virtuous doesn't mean they're protective.


Also, fyi, your perpetual ad hominems, conjectures and gratuitously inflammatory comments are only further exposing your insecurity. It's almost like you have some deep-seated, possibly family-born trauma around libertarianism (which I never claimed to subscribe to) and you feel you need to project your unresolved anger at any stranger who vaguely articulates skepticism around rules that anyone with half a brain will find have shortcomings or are downright dumb.
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  #12326  
Old 07.09.2020, 13:58
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Re: Coronavirus

Libertarians also constantly try to interpret accountability as anger. You fit the bill perfectly. Btw, "ad hominem" means name calling. It ain't so fancy as you think it is, and I haven't called you anything other than the obvious Libertarian you are. Go ahead, keep denying it. If it walks like a Libertarian and quacks like a Libertarian.

I'm especially unamused by this ignorant little snippet:

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I see way more naked faces than masked ones and people are probably spending time with their friends/relatives unmasked, rendering general public mask-wearing rules pretty irrelevant.
I mean, do you hear yourself?

Oh, and
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...your perpetual ad hominems, conjectures and gratuitously inflammatory comments are only further exposing your insecurity... skepticism around rules that anyone with half a brain will find have shortcomings or are downright dumb.
Seriously, you must be trying to do it.
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  #12327  
Old 07.09.2020, 14:02
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Re: Coronavirus

Can we stop the cat fight and go back to Covid-19 please?
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Old 07.09.2020, 14:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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I find it hard to believe your claim to be so close to scientific publication and be so unaware of editorial bias. I take what the likes of what Professor Gupta says seriously because she has had so many papers published and is aware of what is normal/required and what is not.
Who said I was unaware of editorial bias? Of course there is editorial bias just the same as in any publication. For every one biased against her findings there will be one in favour, itís swings and roundabouts.

People choose which journals to submit which papers to very carefully to maximise their chances of being accepted.

How many papers she has had published is really not relevant. How many papers has she had rejected, needed rewrites etc? There will be many of those too because thatís what happens.

As I said before, if it was a valid study that was worth publishing she would have found somebody to publish it.
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  #12329  
Old 07.09.2020, 14:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Btw, "ad hominem" means name calling. It ain't so fancy as you think it is, and I haven't called you anything other than the obvious Libertarian you are.
VVV

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Itís true. I called him a Libertarian and there is no greater insult than that. How could one sink any lower down the evolutionary sewer than an apathetic, myopic, contrarian, willfully ignorant vomitous offense to human intelligence that categorically defines Libertarianism. They are indeed the lowest of the low.




I'm done with you. The stink of denial is just too much.
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  #12330  
Old 07.09.2020, 14:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Can we stop the cat fight and go back to Covid-19 please?
I think this is all quite relevant to Covid. The greatest barrier to dealing effectively with the virus is the constant conflation and noise generated by contrarians who seems to want nothing more than hearing themselves speak. We've got a handful here who, post after post, contradict themselves and contribute to the confusion that's holding everyone back. They need to be called out unequivocally.
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Old 07.09.2020, 14:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Masks are only mandatory on public transport. Where else?
shops in some kantons
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  #12332  
Old 07.09.2020, 14:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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VVV



I'm done with you. The stink of denial is just too much.
Like I said. That's all I called you. I can't help it if you fit the description.
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  #12333  
Old 07.09.2020, 14:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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Libertarians also constantly try to interpret accountability as anger. You fit the bill perfectly. Btw, "ad hominem" means name calling. It ain't so fancy as you think it is, and I haven't called you anything other than the obvious Libertarian you are. Go ahead, keep denying it. If it walks like a Libertarian and quacks like a Libertarian.

I'm especially unamused by this ignorant little snippet:

I mean, do you hear yourself?

Oh, and


Seriously, you must be trying to do it.
I'm a libertarian (I guess).

I wouldn't say Tony Clifton is - he seems more like a old-fashioned right wing conservative to me.

Regarding safety measures and libertarianism. I see our philosophy as being do what you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone else. Clearly, as we may not know whether we are infected. So we can't be sure we aren't hurting any one else in general, so should at least try and mitigate risk - i.e. by wearing a mask.

I don't really see proportionate health measures as anti-libertarian per se.

I'd say that another tenant of libertarianism is personal responsibility. Again encouraging basic safety precautions during a pandemic.

The main proponents of anti-Covid measures seem to me to be on the more alt-right and far left (think Piers Corbyn, BLM etc.) of politics.
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  #12334  
Old 07.09.2020, 14:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm a libertarian (I guess).

I wouldn't say Tony Clifton is - he seems more like a old-fashioned right wing conservative to me.

Regarding safety measures and libertarianism. I see our philosophy as being do what you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone else. Clearly, as we may not know whether we are infected. So we can't be sure we aren't hurting any one else in general, so should at least try and mitigate risk - i.e. by wearing a mask.

I don't really see proportionate health measures as anti-libertarian per se.
I know tons of American Libertatrians. They vary in their personal views, but the common thread is an across the board marginalization of any issues that are not explicitly outlined in the Constitution (or some other "contract"). That pretty much defines the Libertarian. So their response to most issues is "there is no issue", because they happen to be insulated from it, which is the case due to unrecognized (by them) privilege. This is usually followed by a parade of smoke and mirrors trying to prove the non-existence of a problem. The moment the issue is on their doorstep, they whistle a different tune.

Your description, "do what you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone else" is modern day Liberalism, as it falls exactly opposite the Conservative "my way or the highway" mentality of principle and dogma.

Like I've said before, most people's political position hasn't been very well tested before (especially those insulated from the issues due to privilege), and it's big issues such as Covid and lockdown that make it clear where a person stands. They may not like the sound of it, but it's not about self-labelling, rather fitting the description.

TonyClifton is one thing one day, and another the next because he just wants to stir up dust. But he sure does take offense when I call him a Libertarian. Like I said, people may not like what they turn out to be. He's the epitome of "there is no issue" smoke and mirrors.
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Old 07.09.2020, 14:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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I know tons of American Libertatrians. They vary in their personal views, but the common thread is an across the board marginalization of any issues that are not explicitly outlined in the Constitution (or some other "contract"). That pretty much defines the Libertarian. So their response to most issues is "there is no issue", because they happen to be insulated from it, which is the case due to unrecognized (by them) privilege. The moment the issue is on their doorstep, they whistle a different tune.

Your description, "do what you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone else" is modern day Liberalism, as it falls exactly opposite the conservative "my way or the highway" mentality.

Like I've said before, most people's political position hasn't been very well tested before (especially those insulated from the issues due to privilege), and it's big issues such as Covid and lockdown that make it clear where a person stands. They may not like the sound of it, but it's not about self-labelling, rather fitting the description.

TonyClifton is one thing one day, and another the next because he just wants to stir up dust. But he sure does take offense when I call him a Libertarian. Like I said, people may not like what they turn out to be.
I'm not an American (I'm British), but I would say that reliance on a state document such as a constitution to define your stance on issues is inherently not terribly libertarian by nature. Again I would say that's more standard right wing Conservative fare.

You call my views "liberal" - that's fine. I don't really draw the distinction between liberalism and libertarianism. For me both refer to a broad preference for a light touch state.

I appreciate that the term "liberal" is sometimes used to describe people on the left of politics - although that's an Americanism, and things aren't the same in Europe. Certainly from my British perspective, someone like AOC or Bernie Sanders is no liberal. Certainly neither would fit into the liberal party - the FDP - here in Switzerland. Hence the term "libertarianism" really just being a clarification that "liberalism" should be interpreted in the European sense of the word.

I would also say that many if not most political views are dismissive of opponents. Certainly you "calling out" libertarians would seem to fit that, from first appearances.
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  #12336  
Old 07.09.2020, 14:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not an American (I'm British), but I would say that reliance on a state document such as a constitution to define your stance on issues is inherently not terribly libertarian by nature. Again I would say that's more standard right wing Conservative fare.

You call my views "liberal" - that's fine. I don't really draw the distinction between liberalism and libertarianism. For me both refer to a broad preference for a light touch state.

I appreciate that the term "liberal" is sometimes used to describe people on the left of politics - although that's an Americanism, and things aren't the same in Europe. Certainly from my British perspective, someone like AOC or Bernie Sanders is no liberal. Certainly neither would fit into the liberal party - the FDP - here in Switzerland. Hence the term "libertarianism" really just being a clarification that "liberalism" should be interpreted in the European sense of the word.

I would also say that many if not most political views are dismissive of opponents. Certainly you "calling out" libertarians would seem to fit that, from first appearances.
Yes I'm always fascinated by how the American v British definitions of political labels are often 180ļ opposites on the surface. I do wish they'd get on the same page. Somewhere in the liberal/Liberal/NeoLiberal/Fiscal Liberal/AmericanLibertarian/EuroLibertarian mess is some clarity on government "light touch" as you put it. Of course, the real straw man argument is that Government can ever really have a minimal role, since the cry for "less regulation" is really just regulation in favor of the rich, but I digress.

I suppose though, the two versions of Libertarian are pretty close to one another, in their adherence to "contract". Where that quickly departs from the lefty American Liberal is in dealing with issues that aren't explicitly addressed in a Constitution, but still affect the lives of minority groups, that the privileged class would rather just set aside. It's the scoffing at the discussion, behaving as if they're above the issue and the very real conflict unfolding before them is merely a silly distraction, coupled with an unhealthy dose of misinformation and conspiracy theories explaining the "real" (read:boogeyman) source of the conflict. That's what I can't stomach. If that's not true Libertarian European but rather Conservative, fine. But those two seem to be partying together lately.

AOC and Bernie are certainly far left Socialists. They have little choice but to run as Liberals in the two-party Amercian system.

Do remember, that the political spectrum is not a line. It's a circle. The two extremes look identical, and the middle is nowhere to be found.
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Old 07.09.2020, 14:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's a shame Edwin is no longer a member, apparently the Netherlands refuse to mandate masks
https://goldenageofgaia.com/2020/08/...r0Ss8m1G_rLHJQ

Not really, mask's still compulsory in public transport. I hate that kind of writing (in the article)


https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronav...sks-and-gloves
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Old 07.09.2020, 15:24
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I find it hard to believe your claim to be so close to scientific publication and be so unaware of editorial bias. I take what the likes of what Professor Gupta says seriously because she has had so many papers published and is aware of what is normal/required and what is not.

Even if you don't take her word for it, there are other scientists reporting similar experiences. Professor Gabriela Gomes has also said that her paper was rejected for pre-print because "Given the implications for public health, it is appropriate to hold claims around the herd immunity threshold to a very high evidence bar, as these would be interpreted to justify relaxation of interventions, potentially placing people at risk.".

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....27.20081893v3
https://twitter.com/mgmgomes1/status...62358962937857

Now compare and contrast with the paper below that WAS published in the Lancet however its findings (basically predicting a large wave of infections and deaths if there isnít an in contact tracing and isolation positive cases). have yet to be seen anywhere in the world. Like Professor Neil Ferguson's paper, it's a nonsense, yet is published (albeit in online first form) anyhow.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...250-9/fulltext
Did you even read the Lancet paper?

From the Lancet paper "Our findings suggest that it might be possible to avoid a second pandemic wave across both school reopening scenarios if enough people with symptomatic infection can be tested, and contacts of those diagnosed can be traced and effectively isolated ."
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Old 07.09.2020, 15:48
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Who wants to bet that countries will start backtracking on the mandatory masks soon?
I'll go one further and bet that most of the sheep on this thread will start to backtrack on masks and/or slowly fade away
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Old 07.09.2020, 16:00
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I'll go one further and bet that most of the sheep on this thread will start to backtrack on masks and/or slowly fade away
Lots of us are following the rules that the government here have laid out.

If you don't want to follow the rules of this land then you and your chums on this forum ought to find another country to live in.
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