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Old 07.09.2020, 16:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not talking about the amount of time worn wearing a mask. In fact, the longer you use it, the more likely it is to be contaminated.

The only way what you said can be considered remotely influential on global spread is if a significant portion of the population wore an uncontaminated mask most of the time, properly, everywhere (especially at home). Which is not the case at all. I see way more naked faces than masked ones and people are probably spending time with their friends/relatives unmasked, rendering general public mask-wearing rules pretty irrelevant. Mildly protective in the short term, but very negligible in your long term individual risk assessment of catching the virus. Unless you're a recluse or you force the people you spend the most time with to wear one at all times.
That's what I meant by 'for how long' - you will eventually run into/talk to unmasked citizens/relatives and be exposed to it.
And masks protect others (if worn and changed properly, which is seldom), not you... so you're at the constant mercy of other people's discipline... that's why it's such a convenient ploy for you people to satisfy that shaming/virtue-signalling fetish that you have against people who don't want to make you feel safe all the time. Whereas no one is preventing you from exercising physical distancing (or even wearing an ffp2 mask) and I'll be the first one to say that (fresh) masks should be worn when proximity is unavoidable as I have claimed in a previous post. Wasting masks by wearing them in areas with poor population density is unfortunate. Just because they make you feel more virtuous doesn't mean they're protective.
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I'll go one further and bet that most of the sheep on this thread will start to backtrack on masks and/or slowly fade away
I'm sure that soon it'll become clear that even the yet to be proven negligible benefit of wearing a mask in an enclosed space will be outweighed the effects of forcing them on entire populations.

Wearing a fresh one every day, and between new locations, wearing it correctly, not touching the mask at any point, surgical masks instead of cloth masks. etc. etc. Unless all this protocol is adhered to then it's a complete waste of time. Just look around and no one is doing all this!
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  #12342  
Old 07.09.2020, 16:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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If you don't want to follow the rules of this land then you and your chums on this forum ought to find another country to live in.
In Switzerland just get a petition for a vote
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  #12343  
Old 07.09.2020, 16:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's a shame Edwin is no longer a member, apparently the Netherlands refuse to mandate masks
Their government have been very clear in stating that they don't believe it's necessary to mandate masks nationwide, however, they're required in parts of Amsterdam and ( I believe) in Rotterdam.
https://www.amsterdam.nl/en/news/fac...rts-amsterdam/

The Netherlands have a really nifty site set up sharing all their data that's woorth a look. If governments are going to take a hands off approach, this is one way to go about it as it allows people to weigh up the situation for tehmselves.

https://coronadashboard.government.nl/

https://coronadashboard.government.n...o?regio=GM0363

As for covid in general, just heard of two secondary schools that have cases in my UK home town. One has sent a class home to quarantine for two weeks and the other has sent an entire year home to quarantine for two weeks. It's not in the media yet. I'm just hearing from parents of kids affected.
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  #12344  
Old 07.09.2020, 16:12
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Re: Coronavirus

I'm loving the groupthink spiral folding in on itself that's leading the sooo-sure-they-aren't-sheep sheep to believe they've proven masks aren't effective and will certainly be abandoned because they just. want. to. feel. normal. again.

I guess thousands of ER doctors are going to have to rethink surgical masks. They and their patients will be eternally thankful to the non-sheep. Really cracked the nut on that one.
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Old 07.09.2020, 16:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Wearing a fresh one every day, and between new locations, wearing it correctly, not touching the mask at any point, surgical masks instead of cloth masks. etc. etc.
Surgical masks should only be worn for 2-4hrs. When I'm out in the city, I always take 3 with me. Have one zip lock bag of clean ones in the front compartment of my bag, and another ziplock bag of used ones in another pocket. Mark them with a Sharpie and the jobs a good 'un. Simple.
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  #12346  
Old 07.09.2020, 16:49
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Re: Coronavirus

I guess the search for the universal truth about masks is futile. The policies in every place depend on local judgement, infections rate and other things. It is impossible to have the same policies all around the world....we don't even have a global standard for driving on the same side of the road

I live in a canton where the only policy is wear a mask while using public transport. In the last month I wore a mask once while riding the bus back home after drinking in Aarau altstadt. Well, also wore a mask on the plane while crossing the Atlantic but that was more than a month ago. Any of the guys oppressed by the mask laws is using regularly public transport or just making a fuss?
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  #12347  
Old 07.09.2020, 17:05
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Re: Coronavirus

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I live in a canton where the only policy is wear a mask while using public transport. In the last month I wore a mask once while riding the bus back home after drinking in Aarau altstadt. Well, also wore a mask on the plane while crossing the Atlantic but that was more than a month ago. Any of the guys oppressed by the mask laws is using regularly public transport or just making a fuss?
I don't use public transport often, i'm just making a fuss.

(But if they did get stricter with masks I would be against it if they were still allowing people to travel from hotspot Kantons)
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  #12348  
Old 07.09.2020, 17:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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In Switzerland just get a petition for a vote
We did.

The Epidemiengesetz was passed with a 60% yes vote and came into force on 1 January 2016. That law forms the basis of all the Covid actions taken.
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  #12349  
Old 07.09.2020, 18:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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I find it hard to believe your claim to be so close to scientific publication and be so unaware of editorial bias. I take what the likes of what Professor Gupta says seriously because she has had so many papers published and is aware of what is normal/required and what is not.

Even if you don't take her word for it, there are other scientists reporting similar experiences. Professor Gabriela Gomes has also said that her paper was rejected for pre-print because "Given the implications for public health, it is appropriate to hold claims around the herd immunity threshold to a very high evidence bar, as these would be interpreted to justify relaxation of interventions, potentially placing people at risk.".

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....27.20081893v3
https://twitter.com/mgmgomes1/status...62358962937857

Now compare and contrast with the paper below that WAS published in the Lancet however its findings (basically predicting a large wave of infections and deaths if there isn’t an in contact tracing and isolation positive cases). have yet to be seen anywhere in the world. Like Professor Neil Ferguson's paper, it's a nonsense, yet is published (albeit in online first form) anyhow.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...250-9/fulltext
Professor Gabriela Gomes paper was also rejected during peer review just like Prof. Gupta, Gomes gives more detail in her twitter account
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  #12350  
Old 07.09.2020, 18:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Professor Gabriela Gomes paper was also rejected during peer review just like Prof. Gupta, Gomes gives more detail in her twitter account
Given that we don't have great data on covid in general this is basically a blanket policy saying you aren't allowed to publish papers that are skeptical of the merits of the public safety initiatives put in place.

I'd say that was pretty anti science. Normally you are allowed to put stuff out there that's controversial, and even possibly wrong, provided that you acknowledge the limitation of the data you are using.

I don't really care whether or not she is right, but she should be allowed to publish, unless her article is basically garbage, which given her credentials seems unlikely.

And yes, i've been published in a few journals.
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Old 07.09.2020, 18:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't use public transport often, i'm just making a fuss.

(But if they did get stricter with masks I would be against it if they were still allowing people to travel from hotspot Kantons)
Snowflake

Surely people travelling from hotspot Kantons is an important reason to force them to wear masks to protect us from infection
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  #12352  
Old 07.09.2020, 18:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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Given that we don't have great data on covid in general this is basically a blanket policy saying you aren't allowed to publish papers that are skeptical of the merits of the public safety initiatives put in place.

I'd say that was pretty anti science. Normally you are allowed to put stuff out there that's controversial, and even possibly wrong, provided that you acknowledge the limitation of the data you are using.

I don't really care whether or not she is right, but she should be allowed to publish, unless her article is basically garbage, which given her credentials seems unlikely.

And yes, i've been published in a few journals.
So you do not support the peer review process which is blocking publication here?
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  #12353  
Old 07.09.2020, 18:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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So you do not support the peer review process which is blocking publication here?
It seems to be the journal rather than the peers who are making this stance (a journal can reject something even if the "peers" accept, or even reject prior to the "peers" being assigned), but either way no I do not think this is a good reason not to publish.

They could easily have asked for additional qualifiers and statements to the effect that this is not definitive and should not direct public policy, but they'd rather just avoid controversy and that's not an appropriate position for a science journal to take in my opinion. The scientific method involves questioning accepted norms, and putting theories to the test. Blocking contrarian views from being heard is anti-scientific.

Naturally, if there is very hard evidence that a theory is correct, then there would be a higher bar to publication of a contrarian article, but this is an emerging area with little in the way of certainties so the bar should be reasonably low.

Like I say - I'm totally not qualified to comment on the accuracy of the article, but that's not the point.
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  #12354  
Old 07.09.2020, 20:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Given that we don't have great data on covid in general this is basically a blanket policy saying you aren't allowed to publish papers that are skeptical of the merits of the public safety initiatives put in place.

I'd say that was pretty anti science. Normally you are allowed to put stuff out there that's controversial, and even possibly wrong, provided that you acknowledge the limitation of the data you are using.

I don't really care whether or not she is right, but she should be allowed to publish, unless her article is basically garbage, which given her credentials seems unlikely.

And yes, i've been published in a few journals.
This is exactly the point, just the briefest of glances through Professor Gupta's list of publications shows that she has a history of being accepted by journals ranked among the top in their field in terms of impact and citations.
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Old 07.09.2020, 21:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'll go one further and bet that most of the sheep on this thread will start to backtrack on masks and/or slowly fade away
Let's just hope they won't self-delete like some of them have already
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Old 07.09.2020, 21:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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It seems to be the journal rather than the peers who are making this stance (a journal can reject something even if the "peers" accept, or even reject prior to the "peers" being assigned), but either way no I do not think this is a good reason not to publish.

They could easily have asked for additional qualifiers and statements to the effect that this is not definitive and should not direct public policy, but they'd rather just avoid controversy and that's not an appropriate position for a science journal to take in my opinion. The scientific method involves questioning accepted norms, and putting theories to the test. Blocking contrarian views from being heard is anti-scientific.

Naturally, if there is very hard evidence that a theory is correct, then there would be a higher bar to publication of a contrarian article, but this is an emerging area with little in the way of certainties so the bar should be reasonably low.

Like I say - I'm totally not qualified to comment on the accuracy of the article, but that's not the point.
As I posted earlier you can read about Professor Gabriela Gomes paper rejection during the peer review in her twitter account along with comments from the reviewers.

Of course in this post truth era you are welcome to your fact free opinion that the journal rather than the peers rejected the articles.
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Old 07.09.2020, 21:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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It seems to be the journal rather than the peers who are making this stance (a journal can reject something even if the "peers" accept, or even reject prior to the "peers" being assigned), but either way no I do not think this is a good reason not to publish.

They could easily have asked for additional qualifiers and statements to the effect that this is not definitive and should not direct public policy, but they'd rather just avoid controversy and that's not an appropriate position for a science journal to take in my opinion. The scientific method involves questioning accepted norms, and putting theories to the test. Blocking contrarian views from being heard is anti-scientific.

Naturally, if there is very hard evidence that a theory is correct, then there would be a higher bar to publication of a contrarian article, but this is an emerging area with little in the way of certainties so the bar should be reasonably low.

Like I say - I'm totally not qualified to comment on the accuracy of the article, but that's not the point.
No, you sound about right. They made a political decision instead of a scientific one.
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  #12358  
Old 07.09.2020, 21:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Non you sound about right. They made a political decision instead of a scientific one.
Here is the Prof Gupta article on the preprint server, no doubt you can point out to us when it passed the peer review.
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Old 07.09.2020, 21:41
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Re: Coronavirus

Can someone explain to me what are the authorities waiting for numbers to be before there is at least simple work from home recommendation and some tougher measures for group events? We are hitting 500 per day this week, which compared to population size makes Switzerland as one of the worst in Europe. How many new cases per day there needs to be before something new is done, 600, 700 (which was the record in March), 1000?
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Old 07.09.2020, 21:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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As I posted earlier you can read about Professor Gabriela Gomes paper rejection during the peer review in her twitter account along with comments from the reviewers.

Of course in this post truth era you are welcome to your fact free opinion that the journal rather than the peers rejected the articles.
I don't want to be hostile as I occasionally talk out of my arse and need correcting but unfortunately for you it is you on this occasion who is fact free.

I refer you to her comment of 6 August:

"It has not been sent to review. Just received editorial rejections."

To explain the process:

It goes firstly to the journal editors who decide broadly if this is the type of article they want to publish. They could for instance recommend publication in one of their other journals in a related field in they think the subject matter fit isn't quite right or a lower impact journal if the research is in the right area but isn't "sexy" enough. It doesn't automatically go to peer review. On this occasion it has, and I quote " not been sent for review". Thus rejected totally prior to publication, cutting off peer review for what are entirely and explicitly political reasons.

I invite your further comment.


PS im not a covid skeptic, I just don't believe in gagging scientists.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 07.09.2020 at 22:10.
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