Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #12401  
Old 08.09.2020, 09:54
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 164 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 2,920 Times in 1,062 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Go ahead, quote the data that says there are fewer cases now than last spring, or even that the number of cases is trending so rapidly downward worldwide, as to make a second wave so impossible as you say. Nobody's panicking, except maybe you when you imagine the possibility and can't accept it, forcing yourself to say everything is normal again.
The other way around. Prove your claim that it's "order of magnitude" more likely to get infected now vs. the spring. Let me remind you, this is your claim and it was called out as BS
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #12402  
Old 08.09.2020, 10:12
robogobo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Horw (LU)
Posts: 504
Groaned at 76 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 414 Times in 216 Posts
robogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
The other way around. Prove your claim that it's "order of magnitude" more likely to get infected now vs. the spring. Let me remind you, this is your claim and it was called out as BS
My claim is based on simple math, as stated in my comment. One person started this. There are now many millions of cases. If people don't follow the rulesthen the chances of spreading it are LITERALLY orders of magnitude greater. Your internal panic may keep you from reading the If people don't follow the rules again so let me restate one more time with emphasis for you: IF PEOPLE DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES.

Reply With Quote
  #12403  
Old 08.09.2020, 10:14
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,656
Groaned at 584 Times in 334 Posts
Thanked 4,095 Times in 1,716 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I think that it's important to distinguish between measure and implementation.

For example: mandatory masks can help but half the population dodging the rule makes it much less effective.

Or: lockdown can help stopping the spread. People massively dodging the lockdown only leads to a lot of infections and a ruined economy.
With masks there's clearly an overlap though seeing as masks are a measure that is very difficult to implement correctly.
Reply With Quote
  #12404  
Old 08.09.2020, 10:16
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 164 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 2,920 Times in 1,062 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
My claim is based on simple math, as stated in my comment.
Can you show us your "math" so we can have another laugh please
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #12405  
Old 08.09.2020, 11:22
robogobo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Horw (LU)
Posts: 504
Groaned at 76 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 414 Times in 216 Posts
robogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond reputerobogobo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Can you show us your "math" so we can have another laugh please
Let's see:

1 < 1,000,000

Now, that may be more than your brain can handle. But you and the other geniuses who are liking your comments can get together and discuss the complexities.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at robogobo for this post:
  #12406  
Old 08.09.2020, 11:27
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,333
Groaned at 128 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 7,258 Times in 2,761 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
When you close the restaurants, or shops for non-essential items or even night clubs, businesses fail. The people who worked there lose their jobs, and they stop spending, so less money circulates, more businesses fail and more people lose their jobs.
... oh but the solution to this is very simple - "the government" can just "print more money"......

Yeah that's a little flashback to like 6 months ago when pretty much all of this was already discussed ad nauseam and beyond, as was the nonsensical save-lives-or-save-economy-pseudo-dichotomy, with people apparently still unable to understand how the two are linked, and not in the way they think etc.pp.

Also: Sweden was right.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #12407  
Old 08.09.2020, 11:37
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If people don't follow the rulesthen the chances of spreading it are LITERALLY orders of magnitude greater.

I herewith award you the Literal Order of Magnitude.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #12408  
Old 08.09.2020, 11:41
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,091
Groaned at 164 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 2,920 Times in 1,062 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Let's see:

1 < 1,000,000
Is this your definition of "order of magnitude" i was certain you'd be entertaining, but i didn't imagine you'd be SO entertaining
I used to teach maths to underperforming kids back when i was doing my masters. I'm afraid your case is hopeless though.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #12409  
Old 08.09.2020, 11:45
Talk to you later's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,553
Groaned at 67 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,904 Times in 1,054 Posts
Talk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

If my friend Mr-A just got sent home from work for having been in contact with Mr-COVID outside work. What happens to rest of the staff who were in constant daily contact with Mr-A?
Mr-A is going to get tested in 2 days time. Should rest of the staff not be tested too?

I have been in contact with Mr-A too. Shall I get tested too?

Last edited by Talk to you later; 08.09.2020 at 12:07.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Talk to you later for this useful post:
  #12410  
Old 08.09.2020, 12:06
Ato Ato is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,607
Groaned at 17 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 3,023 Times in 1,219 Posts
Ato has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond reputeAto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If my friend Mr-A just got sent home for work for having been in contact with Mr-COVID outside work. What happens to rest of the staff who were in constant daily contact with Mr-A?
Mr-A is going to get tested in 2 days time. Should rest of the staff not be tested too?

I have been in contact with Mr-A too. Shall I get tested too?
My company had a case like this and basically played it as Schrodingers covid, as long as the result is unknown it is both positive and negative at the same time. They tend to wait for results until action is taken, but until then they say you can work from home if you want.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Ato for this useful post:
  #12411  
Old 08.09.2020, 12:08
Talk to you later's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,553
Groaned at 67 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,904 Times in 1,054 Posts
Talk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Schrodingers covid

Thanks. Had to smile
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Talk to you later for this useful post:
  #12412  
Old 08.09.2020, 12:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: na
Posts: 11,027
Groaned at 34 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 26,077 Times in 8,056 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
If my friend Mr-A just got sent home for having been in contact with Mr-COVID outside work. What happens to rest of the staff who were in constant daily contact with Mr-A?
Mr-A is going to get tested in 2 days time. Should rest of the staff not be tested too?

I have been in contact with Mr-A too. Shall I get tested too?
A real-life anecdote:

Mr A was notified by the COVID app of a potential infectious contact. (Yeah, through contact at a club.)

He reported it to his boss, who told him to go into 10 day quarantine. He was tested, the result negative, but had to remain in quarantine until a second negative test at the end of the infectious period. The company is not obliged to pay for that quarantine time, Mr A could take holidays or go unpaid. (I forget which reg specifies that, something about knowingly engaging in risky behavior, and am too lazy to look it up.)

All the staff who have interaction with Mr A were notified - but without knowing if Mr A was or was not infected it was left up to them to decide whether to get tested or not. Some did, others were told by their doctors they did not qualify for testing.

So what to do? Most affected employees sort of 'soft quarantined', that is, kept apart from their families as much as possible and limited outside interaction as much as possible, pending Mr A's second test result. Those who could worked from home, but some have jobs where that is not possible. Those came into work, because who wants to use up holidays or take unpaid time if not necessary.

So - In given the length of the infectious period, lots of potential infectious contacts before results are known. But on the other hand significant individual and company economic consequences to taking steps to prevent further potential spread.

---

I don't know what the regs are on paid/unpaid time for people who are infected while at work - anyone?

---

Moral of this story - Llive your life. But KEEP DISTANCE AND WEAR A frickin' MASK. Cause if you are not worried about your health or can't be *rsed to care about the health of those around you and those around those around you, at least undertand that it can hurt your own pocketbook.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #12413  
Old 08.09.2020, 12:12
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,602
Groaned at 281 Times in 187 Posts
Thanked 18,454 Times in 7,738 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
I think that it's important to distinguish between measure and implementation.


For example: mandatory masks can help but half the population dodging the rule makes it much less effective.


Or: lockdown can help stopping the spread. People massively dodging the lockdown only leads to a lot of infections and a ruined economy.
why? it's how things work out in practice that matter.

a big problem i see is that people are unable to see beyond a very naive and first order view of the world and do not take account the complexities and higher order implications of actions. from this, we end up with measures that sound plausible when viewed naively and not subject to any scruity, but which may in practice be ineffective, or worse, counter-productive.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #12414  
Old 08.09.2020, 12:28
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Geneva
Posts: 35
Groaned at 27 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 107 Times in 28 Posts
sftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

The mask "rules", which are: wear a mask in shops and public transport (depending on the canton), yet people are free to use cars and bikes in groups unmasked and order their stuff online, so these rules are again, pretty irrelevant. And that's what the population seems to be doing here after 1-2 months. NOBODY is disrespecting these two rules here but then again there are now so few people in the shops and buses I frequent, yet regular close gatherings in the open air between unmasked citizens are everywhere... and I mean... good for them (I guess this is the line that gets you labeled a psychopath).

The only mask "rule" that is intellectually and hygienically sound (albeit not realistically imposable) would be to be told to wear a FRESH mask when proximity is socially unavoidable, in areas with high population density (if that means work if your work implies lots of diverse, close human contact, then that, or buses at rush hour, very small crowded shops, dense open air gatherings etc). The funny thing is, I'm sure you could trust most of the population to do just that (just like during the semi-lockdown), but imposing them elsewhere when density is/will turn low will just be a waste of tissue and a risk of possible contamination.
Reply With Quote
  #12415  
Old 08.09.2020, 12:32
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Geneva
Posts: 35
Groaned at 27 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 107 Times in 28 Posts
sftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond reputesftb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
why? it's how things work out in practice that matter.

a big problem i see is that people are unable to see beyond a very naive and first order view of the world and do not take account the complexities and higher order implications of actions. from this, we end up with measures that sound plausible when viewed naively and not subject to any scruity, but which may in practice be ineffective, or worse, counter-productive.
Exactly.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank sftb for this useful post:
  #12416  
Old 08.09.2020, 12:43
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 3,399
Groaned at 40 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 4,580 Times in 2,110 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
My claim is based on simple math, as stated in my comment. One person started this. There are now many millions of cases. If people don't follow the rulesthen the chances of spreading it are LITERALLY orders of magnitude greater. Your internal panic may keep you from reading the If people don't follow the rules again so let me restate one more time with emphasis for you: IF PEOPLE DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES.

Too much coffee?

By the way, there are laws or ordinance more or less followed by everyone https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...es-bundes.html

On a second thought, it's never late for a career change. I've read around here that the quarantine police is understaffed.
Reply With Quote
  #12417  
Old 08.09.2020, 14:04
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,095
Groaned at 510 Times in 433 Posts
Thanked 19,985 Times in 10,539 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
... oh but the solution to this is very simple - "the government" can just "print more money"......

Yeah that's a little flashback to like 6 months ago when pretty much all of this was already discussed ad nauseam and beyond, as was the nonsensical save-lives-or-save-economy-pseudo-dichotomy, with people apparently still unable to understand how the two are linked, and not in the way they think etc.pp.

Also: Sweden was right.
Sweden has the 13th highest death rate (577) per million world wide, more than five times more than the other Nordic countires.
7th highest out of the 48 European countries.

The other Nordic countries?
Denmark 59th worldwide (108/M deaths under a fifth of the Sweden death rate)
Finland 76th
Norway 85th
Iceland 108th

Sweden's GDP fell 8.6% during the second quarter of the year, according to its statistics body.
The fall is sharper than its neighbors — Denmark registered a 7.4% fall, and Finland a 3.2% fall. Norway 5.1% fall
Sweden decided not to pursue a nationwide lockdown, unlike most European nation. The statistics show this did not help its economy.

Source

So what is your definition of success? What did all those extra deaths buy for Sweden?
__________________
It is naive to assume my posts are my own work
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #12418  
Old 08.09.2020, 14:09
V__'s Avatar
V__ V__ is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,511
Groaned at 384 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 2,082 Times in 866 Posts
V__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond reputeV__ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Sweden has the 13th highest death rate (577) per million world wide
13th worldwide with no measures at all? Well done Sweden
Reply With Quote
  #12419  
Old 08.09.2020, 14:21
Elu Elu is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Olten
Posts: 574
Groaned at 21 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 1,083 Times in 459 Posts
Elu has a reputation beyond reputeElu has a reputation beyond reputeElu has a reputation beyond reputeElu has a reputation beyond reputeElu has a reputation beyond reputeElu has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
Sweden has the 13th highest death rate (577) per million world wide, more than five times more than the other Nordic countires.
7th highest out of the 48 European countries.

The other Nordic countries?
Denmark 59th worldwide (108/M deaths under a fifth of the Sweden death rate)
Finland 76th
Norway 85th
Iceland 108th

Sweden's GDP fell 8.6% during the second quarter of the year, according to its statistics body.
The fall is sharper than its neighbors — Denmark registered a 7.4% fall, and Finland a 3.2% fall. Norway 5.1% fall
Sweden decided not to pursue a nationwide lockdown, unlike most European nation. The statistics show this did not help its economy.

Source

So what is your definition of success? What did all those extra deaths buy for Sweden?
I wonder wheter it is ok to compare GDP falls this way. Can we assume that all the (scandinavien) economies depend on exports or foreign GDP's in general to the same degree?
Honest question btw.

If not, than this is not a viable comparison imho.
Reply With Quote
  #12420  
Old 08.09.2020, 14:33
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,333
Groaned at 128 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 7,258 Times in 2,761 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
View Post
13th worldwide with no measures at all? Well done Sweden
This. By some/most people's logic, Sweden should be number 1. By far. And there's at least some chance they'll be 20th or whatever a few months down the road - jury's still out on that one of course. Given that all others are very likely to just have delayed the inevitable - granted they might not have, again jury's still out. Though somehow that ridiculous zero-infection policy that they now seem to pursue all of a sudden is clouding any form of semi-rational judgment and God forbid they should have to admit that Sweden may have gotten it right - it would be collective political suicide.

Quote:
I wonder wheter it is ok to compare GDP falls this way. Can we assume that all the (scandinavien) economies depend on exports or foreign GDP's in general to the same degree?
Honest question btw.

If not, than this is not a viable comparison imho.
They don't, so no.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
This user groans at Samaire13 for this post:
Reply

Tags
cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 12 (1 members and 11 guests)
marton
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coronavirus Jokes makeabigwish Daily life 256 Yesterday 21:06
Coronavirus closed janvier Forum support 18 01.11.2020 13:12
Paid holidays and coronavirus Curtiss Employment 2 20.04.2020 09:22
Coronavirus scammers are out there - be warned Medea Fleecestealer Daily life 9 18.04.2020 18:53
Leaving Switzerland for UK during coronavirus barkingtreewolf Leaving Switzerland 19 11.04.2020 11:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0